Difference in brass radiators

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Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2014: Difference in brass radiators
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By J McCathern on Tuesday, August 05, 2014 - 08:23 pm:

I am in the process of getting a new radiator for my 1914 Touring. I have found one that looks similar. I have measured both and there are only minor differences. There is a possibility that the one that I currently have could have been repaired before I got it. It was my grandfathers that I got a 1-1/2 years ago. He passed away in '03 so I can not ask him. Anyway, can anyone tell me what I need to look for to make sure this one will fit? What are the main differences in the brass ones? It appears that it could be a 1911-1916.
Thanks in advance for your help. This forum is a great source for a newbie like me.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Val Soupios on Tuesday, August 05, 2014 - 08:38 pm:

I believe the years are interchangeable but there are differences in the Ford script and the height and manner of fastening the filler neck. That said, the dimensions of the mounting holes and the height are the same for the factory brass radiators.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Walter Higgins on Tuesday, August 05, 2014 - 08:56 pm:

The biggie is whether it's set-up for gas or electric headlamps.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By J McCathern, Lexington, SC on Tuesday, August 05, 2014 - 09:17 pm:

Walter--- what would the difference be? how could I tell?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Frank van Ekeren (Australia) on Tuesday, August 05, 2014 - 09:22 pm:

Google Brassworks Radiators, that shows the differences.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Val Soupios on Tuesday, August 05, 2014 - 09:23 pm:

Set up for gas would have the piping soldered across the bottom of the radiator


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By J McCathern, Lexington, SC on Tuesday, August 05, 2014 - 09:45 pm:

Thanks Val.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Herb Iffrig on Tuesday, August 05, 2014 - 10:01 pm:

Am I right? 11's and before had no Made in USA under the Ford script. 12's and later had it.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By J McCathern, Lexington, SC on Tuesday, August 05, 2014 - 10:36 pm:

Herb, Per MAC's Antique Auto Parts Catalog, 11-12 did not have Made in USA stamped, 13-16 had Made in USA stamped on it. Does not say for the 09-10 ones.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Barry Fowler - Eagle River, Alaska on Tuesday, August 05, 2014 - 11:26 pm:

The 09 and 10 radiators did not have made in USA but they did have the winged Ford.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Jelf, Parkerfield KS on Wednesday, August 06, 2014 - 12:14 am:

Take a look at radiators in the encyclopedia. Bruce describes the differences and shows you pictures.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By J McCathern, Lexington, SC on Wednesday, August 06, 2014 - 12:24 am:

Steve - I am not familiar with the encyclopedia you are talking about. Do you have a link I could go to? Thanks.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Jelf, Parkerfield KS on Wednesday, August 06, 2014 - 12:49 am:

You bet. Everybody with a T should have it. The disk includes not only the encyclopedia, but manuals, advertising, and lots of other Model T stuff.

http://dauntlessgeezer.com/DG80.html


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Keith Townsend ; ^ ) Gresham, Orygun on Wednesday, August 06, 2014 - 01:11 am:

J-

Right here:

http://www.mtfca.com/encyclo/index.htm

Like Steve says, get the CD for more details, as it include all the parts manuals.

: ^ )

Keith


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hap Tucker in Sumter SC on Wednesday, August 06, 2014 - 06:44 am:

Welcome to the forum and thanks for adding your address. Lexington SC is about 60 minutes away from my location and is only about 15 minutes from Smith & Jones Antique car parts ( http://www.snjparts.com/ ) . Several of the Model T Ford Club of South Carolina members live within less than an hour of you. If you have not already contacted the MTFCSC please check out their website at: http://www.scmodeltford.org/ Meetings are normally scheduled on the second Saturday of odd numbered months – but they sometimes change them due to conflicts etc. The next meeting is Sat Sept 13.

In a previous posting you mentioned “I am new to restoring T's. I am in the process of restoring my grandfathers 1914 touring.” I’m not sure if that means you are familiar with Ts but just not with restoring them or if you are also new to Ts also. If you are new to T’s also, have you read about any of safety items yet? The T can serve you faithfully but like the horse it replaced both have some known safety issues that are easily handled. But both of them can bite you if you aren’t aware of some simple but important items. Having an experienced Model T person to help you learn about your car can save you lots of frustration and possible expense. For example if you fail to retard the spark and you push down on the starting crank at the front of the car to start the car, you could easily break your arm. That is a known safety issue with Model Ts. And it isn’t dangerous as long as you understand what causes it [spark lever advanced [that is the left hand lever on a left hand drive car] it should be pushed up], commutator adjustment rod installed wrong or bent improperly so that even with the spark lever up, the spark is still too far advanced, shorted wire on the commutator, etc. . And if your car was updated with an electrical starter – if the spark is advanced and the engine back fires – it can damage the starter and/or bendix drive. For additional details please see: http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/50893/69444.html and http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/50893/68644.html?1224126132 .

Some other safety related items:

And be sure the car is in safe working order. An engine that burns oil is not a critical safety issue (at least not in my book) but the front end castor if it is set up negative can flip the car. A 1914 rear axle would have originally had bronze thrust washers installed by Ford. But if those were replaced with the later babbit style thrust washer or even with a later rear axle with the babbitt style thrust washer you can lose your normal brakes Those and similar items are well documented "oops" for the T. But if you have never been around one -- they are probably new "data points" for you. Some of them are listed below – not to scare you but to let you learn from others rather than discovering all the lessons on your own. See the discussion at: http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/50893/78685.html?1233159025 If you loose the brakes and you are on a flat area with minimal traffic – it is not nearly as bad as loosing them while going down hill towards a busy intersection. See the rear axle babbitt discussion part way down in the following thread: http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/257047/277093.html?1332591272


Safety Glass is nice: http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/50893/72116.html

Use safety wire and not lock washers or cotter pins on the two studs holding the wishbone to the underside of the engine.

Lots of safety items http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/50893/69429.html

Over center steering – i.e. you turn the wheel to the left the car is going left you keep turning the steering wheel left and eventually it starts turning the wheels to the right. That shouldn’t happen on a properly assembled and adjusted T. But if someone used the wrong parts or items are worn excessively, installed the wrong length drag link etc. it can happen: http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/80257/86345.html as well as: http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/257047/300409.html

Types of safety wire: http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/29/41859.html

Example of loss of brakes caused by drive shaft failure: http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/29/47804.html

Top T tips – many of them are safety related also: http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/80257/85208.html

Tour safety check list: http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/29/44331.html

And if you have a gas hot water heater in the garage – be very very careful. The float in a Model T Carb will sometimes stick (or trash in the valve) and the carb will leak gasoline. Not too bad if there are no sparks – several homes, garages and cars have been lost when a gas hot water heater was near by and someone started the dishwasher other item that caused it to turn on the burner at the wrong time. Note gas fumes tend to be heavier than regular air …. so they tend to hug the floor. If you adjust your garage door to let the mice in and the air out – that is a temp work around. But replacing the gas fired hot water heater with an electric heater or having the gas one relocated away from the garage is the best thing

Even with a perfectly good and properly adjusted front steering system – if you back up quickly, the front wheels can go full left or full right and pull the steering wheel out of your hand – so remember to back up slowly. It is caused by the caster of the front wheels similar to the casters on the front of the shopping cart – designed to be stable in one direction but not so stable in the opposite direction. Since you have already been driving the car you probably do not have the following problem – but you might still want to check. If someone rebuilt the front axle and it is was really difficult to keep the car going straight they may have inadvertently swapped the front spring perches. There is a left and a right spring perch that tilts the axle so the bottom of the axle is slightly ahead of the top of the axle (5 1/2 degrees positive caster). If it has negative to neutral caster it can cause a wild ride and also could cause the car to flip even at a slow speed see: http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/80257/80333.html?1233523419 that shows the spring perch installed incorrectly and how the front axle looks then. Also see: http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/29/40382.html Note even with the spring perch installed correctly a bent or shortened wishbone could cause neutral to negative caster.


Again a T is a faithful servant but it has some known issues that the driver needs to be aware of and to take proper precautions about.

Steve Jelf has already posted his excellent recommendation for books to have and others will gladly help with any questions you may have. And many of those books are available from the Model T Ford Club of South Carolian. They have a very nice lending library which includes the books and videos on how to rebuild many of the items on the T.

And back to the original thread -- radiators. Many of the original brass radiators no longer cool as well as they originally did. The connections between the fins and the tubs have corroded and/or come loose etc. They often look good but still don't cool properly. I don't know of an easy way to tell just by looking at them. I do know that you can install them, run them and it is easy to tell if they are cooling properly or not. See the thread at: http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/29/33916.html?1187100090

See also: http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/118802/131432.html?1269457032 for a comparison of original and reproduction radiator.

Again welcome aboard!

Respectfully submitted,

Hap l9l5 cut off


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Larry Smith on Wednesday, August 06, 2014 - 10:51 am:

Every year they made some kind of a change in the radiators. The best thing to do is study known originals to find out. The replacement radiators made by Ford after 1916 had a shorter lip on the side panels that go over the frame. They discontinued offering radiators sometime in 1925, and as I recall they were offered in the service bulletin for $12 each.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By J McCathern, Lexington, SC on Wednesday, August 06, 2014 - 09:48 pm:

Thank you so much for all the websites and info. Going to plow through all this slowly.

Hap- Check your email as I sent you a PM.

Thanks to all!!!

J


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By mike_black on Wednesday, August 06, 2014 - 11:21 pm:

JMcCathern,
The SC club is having a "Tech session", drive, and cook-out Aug 23rd, in Lexington. Go to their website and contact Susan for details.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By J McCathern, Lexington, SC on Wednesday, August 06, 2014 - 11:45 pm:

Thanks Mike. I got the email today about that. Planning to go. Hope you can make it. I think I met you at the meeting at Flight Deck in January.

J


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