Chemicals for our work ?

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Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2014: Chemicals for our work ?
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mack Cole ---- Earth on Saturday, August 09, 2014 - 10:22 pm:

I went by the local Ace hardware and ask about a quart of MEK yesterday. I dont use alot of it but when I need it, I need it.No quarts, only gallons. The lady also told me the EPA was really causing a inventory reduction of chemicals like this in their store and sure enough the area for lacquer thinner and such was SMALL compared to what it was a few months ago. I got 1 gallon and it was not cheap.
1 or 2 more gallons left at that store and no more.A neighbor on my advice checked the local Lowes. Same story.

So if you want to clean a gas tank for lineing or whatever, where are you going to be able to get the chemicals if the stores dont carry them?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Jelf, Parkerfield KS on Saturday, August 09, 2014 - 11:40 pm:

A couple of years ago when I was in California I went to two different paint stores looking for lacquer thinner. In both places they said lacquer thinner was now illegal in California. I went to Home Depot and found a shelf filled with quarts and gallons of the stuff. I think sometimes government regulations are just a convenient story.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By William L Vanderburg on Saturday, August 09, 2014 - 11:44 pm:

Don't get the eco friendly, milky colored thinner. I don't think it works as good as the clear kind.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Peter Borland. Bathurst. NSW. Australia. on Sunday, August 10, 2014 - 02:17 am:

I sometimes get the feeling that there is a push to stop people from being self reliant and just become part of the throw it away and buy another one crowd. To do this just stop the availability of the materials needed to achieve this behind the guise of environment and personal safety laws. Am I being paranoid?

Peter


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Royce in Georgetown TX on Sunday, August 10, 2014 - 09:14 am:

The effect of these regulations is to force everything to be made in China or Mexico. It exports our economy to them.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By keith g barrier on Sunday, August 10, 2014 - 09:48 am:

Went to ace here last year to buy muratic acid and had to sign for it, only place that has required me to do so though they said it was the law. KGB


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ed in California on Sunday, August 10, 2014 - 09:58 am:

That is because we are children, and cannot be trusted to have anything remotely dangerous. Gee, how did those over 50 survive this long with all our dangerous lead- painted toys and activities? It is all made-up crap by our overlords.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By James Chochole on Sunday, August 10, 2014 - 11:37 am:

I also think the litigious nature of Americans works to our disadvantage. Every time a goodly amount of people group gets sick, dies or has a large enough amount of sincere accidents, major lawsuits cause the industry to regulate (and sometimes over-regulate) to avoid more liabilities. In the case of MEK, I have some and use it (and respect it) but it truly is NASTY and dangerous to your health.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Walter Higgins on Sunday, August 10, 2014 - 01:04 pm:

I was told by a chemical wholesaler that another aspect to rising costs are the new building codes. If you're at a Lowe's or a Home Depot, look inside the racks. They have heavy fire suppression running down from overhead and there are sprinkler heads inside the racks. The installation of these new systems, particularly in stores that have already been built, is quite costly. My understanding was these are regulations brought on in recent years by the adoption of the International Building Code.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ricks - Surf City on Sunday, August 10, 2014 - 01:36 pm:

I prefer acetone.

from wiki:

Acetone is produced and disposed of in the human body through normal metabolic processes. It is normally present in blood and urine. People with diabetes produce it in larger amounts. Reproductive toxicity tests show that it has low potential to cause reproductive problems. Pregnant women, nursing mothers and children have higher levels of acetone.[12] Ketogenic diets that increase acetone in the body are used to reduce epileptic attacks in infants and children who suffer from recalcitrant refractory epilepsy...

Acetone is a good solvent for many plastics and some synthetic fibers. It is used for thinning polyester resin, cleaning tools used with it, and dissolving two-part epoxies and superglue before they harden. It is used as one of the volatile components of some paints and varnishes. As a heavy-duty degreaser, it is useful in the preparation of metal prior to painting. It is also useful for high reliability soldering applications to remove rosin flux after soldering is complete; this helps to prevent the Rusty bolt effect.

Acetone is used as a solvent by the pharmaceutical industry and as a denaturant in denatured alcohol.[21] Acetone is also present as an excipient in some pharmaceutical drugs.[22]

Although itself flammable, acetone is used extensively as a solvent for the safe transporting and storing of acetylene, which cannot be safely pressurized as a pure compound. Vessels containing a porous material are first filled with acetone followed by acetylene, which dissolves into the acetone. One liter of acetone can dissolve around 250 liters of acetylene...


EPA EPCRA Delisting (1995). EPA removed acetone from the list of "toxic chemicals" maintained under Section 313 of the Emergency Planning and Community Right to Know Act (EPCRA). In making that decision, EPA conducted an extensive review of the available toxicity data on acetone and found that acetone "exhibits acute toxicity only at levels that greatly exceed releases and resultant exposures", and further that acetone "exhibits low toxicity in chronic studies"...


Environmental. When the EPA exempted acetone from regulation as a volatile organic compound (VOC) in 1995, EPA stated that this exemption would "contribute to the achievement of several important environmental goals and would support EPA's pollution prevention efforts". 60 Fed. Reg. 31,634 (June 16, 1995). 60 Fed. Reg. 31,634 (June 16, 1995). EPA noted that acetone could be used as a substitute for several compounds that are listed as hazardous air pollutants (HAP) under section 112 of the Clean Air Act...

Acetone can also be used in combination with automatic transmission fluid to create an effective penetrating oil. Brake fluid is sometimes used in place of ATF. These mixtures (usually 1:1) can be useful in loosening rusted or stuck bolts.[citation needed]...
--------

RDR


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Erik Barrett on Sunday, August 10, 2014 - 02:38 pm:

As soon as the EPA finds out a certain product is effective and useful, it is their mission to ban it. Remember the old Brakleen? Worked great. Gone now. Just try to buy a gallon of reducer for some paint you bought last year. Remember when that pail of carb cleaner would burn holes in your skin and you had to wear eye protection just to open the can? Stuff you get now is no more effective than dunking your parts in old dishwater. Just wait 'til they come after WD40 and duct tape.
Erik


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ricks - Surf City on Sunday, August 10, 2014 - 02:51 pm:

What has EPA done to acetone, Erik? It might pay to look into why the EPA has banned so many chemicals. Some people have suffered brain and lung damage from some solvents and reducers.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Danial - Veneta OR US Earth Solar System on Sunday, August 10, 2014 - 03:19 pm:

Acetone works great for a lot of stuff. I keep a bottle of acetone fingernail polish remover on hand for sticker and decal glue removal - among other things.

As for the random banning in some stores and not others, I can tell you this - we sell some chemicals that are only for sale to industrial accounts. It is against the law for us to sell them to walk-in cash sale customers.

(Brakleen is one of those products.)

We even have an industrial grade insecticide in aerosol that we can't sell to the general public.

This could explain why you see the product in some outlets and not others. If you want the good stuff, look for a friend who works for an industrial wholesaler, he'll probably hook you up.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Erik Barrett on Sunday, August 10, 2014 - 03:56 pm:

RD,
There is no doubt there is sound reasoning for banning some of these products. They must be handled with care and protective equipment should be easily available to those that use them. I have exposed myself to some of them in the past and whatever problems I experience as a result are no one's fault but my own.
I admit to ignorance regarding the exemption of acetone. It is certainly a valuable substance to industry.
Erik


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Rob from Nova Scotia on Sunday, August 10, 2014 - 07:30 pm:

Brakekleen contained carbon tetrachloride. When exposed to heat it creates phosgene. Which is a lethal gas.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Donnie Brown on Sunday, August 10, 2014 - 10:09 pm:

Keith, Muratic acid is one of the chemicals used to make Meth. as well as Crystal Draino and other things. Here in Arkansas the "signing for" these products, is an attempt to help track repeat buyers who may be using it for illegal uses. I hope it is working ...


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mack Cole ---- Earth on Sunday, August 10, 2014 - 10:24 pm:

Well I have some acetone in the shop to.
When I do restorations on small engines and such I use Redcoat, a fuel tank liner that can only be thinned with MEK. Plus the tank has to be rinsed with it before using the Redcoat.

Also Mek will break down this crapy gas that is stuck to glass fuel bowls and such much quicker and easyer than anything else I have found.


Them dang meth heads have ruined it for everybody. You cant even get decent allergy medicine without signing for it now because of it.
I dont mind signing for something if it will keep the meth heads under control but takeing something away without giving me a way to deal with it stinks.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Danial - Veneta OR US Earth Solar System on Sunday, August 10, 2014 - 10:48 pm:

We have to have a prescription here in Oregon to buy psuedafed.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Jelf, Parkerfield KS on Monday, August 11, 2014 - 12:58 am:


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Danial - Veneta OR US Earth Solar System on Monday, August 11, 2014 - 01:14 am:

hahaha that's a classic, Steve.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Erik Barrett on Monday, August 11, 2014 - 01:21 am:

Steve,
That's funny stuff! Or at least it would be if the truth wasn't so tragic. Meth is the spawn of the devil himself, it destroys everything and everyone it touches. If I have to sign a form to buy chemicals or get Sudafed, OK with me.
By the way, I think a real Meth Lab would not have that many teeth.
Fordially, Erik


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Royce in Georgetown TX on Monday, August 11, 2014 - 06:44 am:

I bought Brakleen yesterday at Advance Auto Parts. They had the good red cans and the worthless green cans in stock.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hal Davis-SE Georgia on Monday, August 11, 2014 - 08:03 am:

Meth has been the death of Coleman fuel too. I use to buy it by the gallon can to run hit and miss engines on. Yeah, it was expensive, but they don't use much and it lasts FOREVER, never gumming up the fuel system, even if it sits for months or even years. Now, it is only available in quarts (At least in my area), and they cost more than a gallon ever thought about costing, and you cannot buy but a certain amount at a time. Yes, some of that is the rising cost of oil, but most of it is due to meth.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ivan Warrington on Monday, August 11, 2014 - 09:05 am:

Needed a gal of MEK went to paint store and they had changed to "MEK substitute" not even close. Said they cannot get MEK any longer.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Danial - Veneta OR US Earth Solar System on Monday, August 11, 2014 - 09:28 am:

We still have upstairs in our "sample" room the last case of tri-chlor based parts cleaner you'll probably find anywhere. About 15-20 years ago or so when it was outlawed, we were allowed to bring in as much as we wanted until the cut-off date so we did for several customers that didn't want to use anything else.

That was the best stuff for cleaning (and the worst stuff for health). Toward the end, the company we bought it from was selling it for $80 or more for a can. Weyerhaeuser paid us about $120 PER CAN, that's how much they liked using it.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mack Cole ---- Earth on Wednesday, August 13, 2014 - 09:43 am:

I went back this morning to see about getting the can that was on the shelf behind the gallon I bought. Gone. Mek substitute was there.
Oh well. the last gallon I bought has last 7 years and still have a little.
I think I will locate a contact for the RedCoat tank liner that I use and see what they recommend for use with their products now and see what I come up with.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ricks - Surf City on Wednesday, August 13, 2014 - 11:00 am:

I used Tri-chloroethane for cleaning parts in the Army, and later in an electronics technician job for a couple of years. At least one other in our group of less than 50 contracted ALS.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Burger in Spokane on Thursday, August 14, 2014 - 12:31 am:

I spray the farm down for frogs and birds twice a year. Been using diethylene-9 since they outlawed that radioactive stuff I used to get at Hanford. Kills all the fish and bees too. Junior has grown a foot since you all saw him last.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By William L Vanderburg on Thursday, August 14, 2014 - 09:09 am:

If people could get high from sniffing gum, they would. That's no reason to ban a product. You're not going to catch a repeat buyer who's stockpiling inhalants or Draino every four months.

Next, they will be banning the following products: (1-4) Artificial coloring agents blue 1, blue 2, yellow 5, and yellow 6

These are found in an array of processed food items including cake and cake mixes, candy, macaroni and cheese, medicines, sport drinks, soda, pet food, and cheese. Artificial dyes are used to make foods to seem more visually appealing to consumers. Don’t be fooled, however. Today most artificial colors are made from coal tar, which is also used to seal-coat products to preserve and protect the shine of industrial floors… It also appears in head lice shampoos to kill off the small bugs.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mack Cole ---- Earth on Thursday, August 14, 2014 - 09:40 am:

Well I just sent a email to the folks that make the tank liner that I use in my restorations of small engines.
http://damonq.com/red-kote.html
I will post any response I get here.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By G.R.Cheshire on Thursday, August 14, 2014 - 09:49 am:

Just used my last pound of R-12 in a cousins 57 dodge. I was told by the napa guy about 6 months before the cut off so I bought a case every payday. that was a good investment! end of an era.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mark Strange on Thursday, August 14, 2014 - 10:52 am:

I went to the local CarQuest this morning and tried to order a case of the red can Brakleen. The guy at the counter tried, and said that his computer was telling him that he couldn't order it by the case anymore, just as individual cans. So, he ordered 12 cans for me and 12 cans for himself, that should last us a while.

He had a green can of Brakleen, I looked at the label and it contains acetone and other petroleum distillates, but no trichloroehtylene. I've used the green stuff, it cleans OK, but takes longer to evaporate, I had to blow the parts with my heat gun after cleaning them to get them completely dry.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bill dugger on Thursday, August 14, 2014 - 11:07 am:

When I was stationed in Germany in the 50's(54-56) we used carbon tech to remove the wax from our barracks floor. We would bring gallons of it from our heavy equipment shop and open up a can and pour a little on the floor and use brush and clean up the floor. The hard wood floors were put down with a black tar, instead of being nailed as the sub-floor was concrete. The buildings were the old Luft Waffa barracks, that were used for the German airforce during WW2. The windows were open and when the floor was clean and dry we would re-wax the floor and polish it with a power buffer. I remember doing that several time in the almost two (2) years their in Hanau, Germany. I am about as normal as the rest of you guy's and girls on this forum!!!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bill dugger on Thursday, August 14, 2014 - 11:15 am:

In today's world everything is as follows

Illegal---immoral----fattening---bad for your health--or restricted and only available with a prescription from your doctor .

It may cause severe bleeding, heart attacks, blindness, skin problems, hair loss, and probably death, so call a lawyer and you may get a
payout even if you are DEAD!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By wes heustess on Thursday, August 14, 2014 - 12:53 pm:

the signature/ID restrictions of many of the materials used in meth production has lead to a huge reduction of its availability. Sorry its frustrating but for the greater good folks.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Danial - Veneta OR US Earth Solar System on Thursday, August 14, 2014 - 04:42 pm:

The tri-chlor in new Brakleen is a slightly different formula than the old bad stuff. Although the stuff being used now is bad as well. (Tricloroethylene versus the old trichloroethene). The current TCE is used in such tiny amounts though that it probably isn't what is in the new Brakleen that makes you like it better. It has less than 1/10th of 1% of it.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Danial - Veneta OR US Earth Solar System on Thursday, August 14, 2014 - 04:57 pm:

Wes, here in Oregon, even the so-called experts who watch such trends have stated publicly that curtailing the the purchase of psuedafed only postponed the inevitable - which is, as soon as all those mom-and-pop meth houses were shut down because of it, our lovely illegals moved right in to fill the void and are now bringing the stuff up from south of the California border by the truck load.

It took a few years, but we're back where we started, in this state at least.

We have such a knee-jerk philosophy when it comes to solving problems in this country, it's amazing. Few of our politicians here in Oregon have much in the way of any real critical thinking skills beyond how many votes they can count on based on the latest bandwagon they're riding on.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By G.R.Cheshire on Thursday, August 14, 2014 - 05:21 pm:

Wes I hate to disappoint you but meth is still widely available they just busted another lab last week the criminals just find new ways to get what they need. at least here in Fl


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bob Solak on Thursday, August 14, 2014 - 05:30 pm:

Danial/all,

Just an fyi, but trichloroethylene is the same thing as trichlorothene. Those are just synonyms.

Also, there is only one Brakleen that still has chlorinated compounds in it.

There appear to be 6 varieties of Brakleen. See
http://crcindustries.com/auto/crc-brakleen-brake-parts-cleaner
Two are red cans, four are green. All the greens are non-chlorinated. Only one of the reds is chlorinated.

The non-chlorinated red can says non-chlorinated. The other says "original" formula, and it's Material Safety Data Sheet (MSDS) says it is 90-100% perchlorothyelene (a.k.a. tetrachloroethyene). See
http://www.crcindustries.com/faxdocs/msds/5089.pdf

I do not know if Brakleen has always been tetrachloroethlyene or if it was, at one point, trichloroethylene. Both are common degreasers/solvents.

If anyone wants to know, generally, what is in a commercial chemical mixture, just google the name and "MSDS" and you should be able to find out pretty quick. Just understand that the can that has been on your garage shelf for thirty years may have been different at the time it was made.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Danial - Veneta OR US Earth Solar System on Thursday, August 14, 2014 - 05:58 pm:

Actually they are indeed slightly different. I could point you to the same google pages I was earlier but you know how to do all that.

Trichloroethene was the more popular to use until it was all but wiped out by a worldwide protocol (name escapes me). That's when the -ethylene version became more widespread, although both have been around a very long time.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mack Cole ---- Earth on Thursday, August 14, 2014 - 09:33 pm:

Still aint heard diddly squat from Redkote. I have at least 2 small tanks I need to do and I will need to buy a quart of liner.
But I am trying to be proactive and find out what to fiqure on doing when my supplies run out next time.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mark Strange on Friday, August 15, 2014 - 05:45 pm:

I lucked out - the small auto parts store in my town had 6 cans of the red CRC brake cleaner (fully chlorinated) on the shelf, so I bought every can he had.

Many thanks to the forum for alerting us on this.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Danial - Veneta OR US Earth Solar System on Friday, August 15, 2014 - 08:56 pm:

Fully chlorinated by today's standards but it is definitely not the chlorinated version of years past. Today's stuff has less than 1/10th of 1% of the Tri-Chlor in it.


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