I bought this straight through NH at Chickasha. Guy said it was a good fresh rebuild. Well he was right about the fresh rebuild part, because it does seem to be clean inside and have fresh gaskets and a new float. However it did not run well and the float would stick open sometimes, flooding the ground with gas. Not good! So I took it off and have had it sitting on the shelf since April.
Today I decided to take it apart to see what was wrong.
OK now I see the problem.
It has a Grose Jet. No big deal, easy fix.
First, remove the Grose Jet:
I have a cigar box full of extra NH parts. Normally I would order a new original style needle and seat from Langs or Chaffins, but I found a good original one.
A quick polish with the needle chucked in the drill:
The seat needs a gasket, don't forget or you will have a flooding carburetor!
Tighten the seat just snug. Do not apply gorilla torque or you can easily snap off the seat.
With the carburetor upside down you can check and adjust the float height to 1/4" measured at 180 degrees from the hinge:
The bowl gasket goes on next:
The seal washer goes under the bolt, on the outside of the bowl on any NH:
This is another place where you just tighten the bolt snug, because the brass bolt strips out easily.
Ready to install:
After a few minutes a happy puttering sound came from the engine. After picking up all the tools a drive around the neighborhood confirmed it runs great!
Great write up! Thank you Royce
I have wondered which surface one is spose to measure the float distance? Isn't it the Kingston L-4 that is specd at 5/16?
Friday, my modern T part shut off valve was leaking as well as needle sticking.
Took off carb with valve attached and applied fuel lube to disassembled valve. Replaced needle.
And vuala. No mas leaks.
Royce, nice story and pics. Gratifying when you can fix an issue like that without even ordering any parts. I like original needle valves like that but always wonder why the gross jet type fail so often. On paper, they look like a very reasonable design. What gives? At least the original style can always be made to work.
Also, looks like you must be left handed as that is the only hand shown doing the work (grin). Or that is the photogenic hand? Many of my work photos are the same way.
Most likely his right hand is holding the camera?
I know that my Canon digital camera is designed to be fully operable with only the right hand.
Royce this is a great post.
I almost skipped it when I saw your name.
You do bring out those feelings to some of us.
I need and welcome more posts from you of this nature and
fewer or none of the posts from your dark side.
What dark side? Y'all need to toughen up.
Great post Royce. I wish there were more pictorial procedures posted on here more often, no matter how simple of complex the job.
P.S. The nice thing about the new forum format that this site has been resisting is that posts like this can become stickies that are permanently near the top. Other topics like the procedure on how to bring a Model T back to life could be included.
It seems the Grosse jet is not compatible with ethanol fuel. Seems the ethanol gums up the ball in the Grosse jet and causes the just to stick open and the fuel runs our of the carb.
My brother has a 5 ball with a Grosse jet and had the same issue stuck ball free flowing fuel.
Have ran Grosse jets for years with no issue until the damn ethanol fuel. We had used these jets in model a's forever, now not so much. I'm guessing if you used the car daily no problem, but as we let these sit and use them sparingly there is an issue.
I put a Grosse jet needle and seat in my NH many moons ago back when I only started and ran the car once a year (annual pilgrimage to parent's house) and never had a problem with sticking. I think ethanol was being used at that time in Kansas but not sure.
Royce, I am going to get a pack of the green Scotch Brite pads for my shop. Hadn't thought about how great they would be for cleaning or polishing like you used for the needle. Great idea!
Royce, what's the item in the top LH corner of the 1st picture? Looks like it may be a shut-off valve of some sort.
It is a new old stock 1913 windshield hinge.
One addition I like to add to the carb is a tension spring that hooks to the choke arm and wraps down the bowl and hooks on the drain handle on the bottom. I route the spring so it keeps the drain handle from coming loose and draining the gas while going down the road. It also is good for those carbs that no longer have a good choke spring.
Thanks all for such a rapid and great posts ! Took off the carb, no fuel in bowl. Ran line from tank to carb with bowl off. No fuel guess what it does have the ball grose jet. I will order parts from Snyder's tomorrow but any way to unstick a grose valve so I can test the engine ?
THANKS for all the pictures !
Compressed air can blow them free. It will stick again soon, so don't drive further than you want to walk.
The anatomy of a Grose jet:
In years past when the original gentleman was manufacturing and selling the Grosse jet, they worked perfectly. The original balls were fired glass. Today they are not the same material and your assumption is correct ethanol will destroy the smooth surface of the balls, causing flooding.
My brother had a guy restore his 5 ball Kingston and after a short time of running gas poured out of the float chamber. Interesting he drove and tested the car, it ran fine. Put the car in his trailer and after arriving at the tour turned on the gas and it just flooded out.
We replaced the carb and he made the tour. After returning home is was determined that the jet was not smooth and round, it was rough and sticking causing the flooding condition. The was not one of Stan's work, sadly my brother chose a so called 5 ball "expert" with not so good results.
I just bought a tiny little 5 ball off ebay. Smaller than any I have ever seen, far too small for a T. If carburetors can be cute, this one is cute. I haven't had a chance to see what is in it for a needle and seat but it is going to be a challenge to get something in it that will work.
For standard Kingstons I use a needle and seat out of a Ford tractor carb. I figure if it will flow enough for a 3 plow tractor at full throttle it will flow enough for a T on a pull. Somebody back somewhere in time had a conversion they were doing using a Techumseh needle and seat JB welded into the body of the bowl. Works but not enough flow at full throttle. Also does not pull the needle open but relies on fuel pressure to open it. There is almost no pressure at the orifice so any sticky at all will keep them from flowing fuel. That is the problem with the Grose jet. It sticks closed due to varnished fuel and the low head pressure of the T will not force it open. The way I make them the weight of the float mechanism pulls the needle off the seat.
This is similar, I couldn't find a picture of my 4 and 5 ball system. (I tore a Ruckstell down today and I smell so bad I have to get back out to the shop when there is some fresh air before I pass out) This is for an early Holley, this design uses an Edelbrock needle and seat with modifications. I make the floats.
Just before I go back to work, here is a recent 5 ball restoration. I should have taken a shot of it when it came in but didn't. Dirty, greasy bent up mess. Didn't turn out too bad. Note that this is not for a T Ford. I forget just what it fit.
I should have mentioned, this is also smaller than a T Kingston. Maybe 1/4 inch smaller.
Another 5 ball, this is a bigger one for a tractor. Probably 4 inches across. I have a couple that are bigger than this. Coming in I have a dual fuel 5 ball for a 1912?? Hart Paar tractor. That should be interesting. Two floats, two needles and seat, 10 balls and ball seats. Haven't seen it, he says it weighs about 15 lbs.
The little Kingston above was for a 1903 Stoddard Dayton. Old and Senile, couldn't remember.
It sure is pretty.I wish you lived closer,I have a 8N tractor that has a new carb and it is giving me fits.
Probably one of the ones made in India that has the passages wrong.
Jack, remove the idle jet, drill it to .036 from whatever it is. That will fix the idle. Check the passages to make sure they are open. Some of those they are selling are just crap. They continue to sell the Carter YF copies that were made in India to service the L-134 and F-134 Willys engines. They will not run. Not matter what you do. They are all over ebay for $200-275 and are selling. There is nothing you can do to make them run right as the passages were drilled wrong. (or so I hear) The old YF's run fine if you make sure they have all the little parts in them and they are in the right place.
The 8N - 9N Scheblers are being repoped by a couple different people. Some are OK, I hear, some just won't run. Also, the rebuild kits now only come with the .028 idle jet that was standard in the TSX 214 and if installed in the TSX 33 used on the earlier 9N and 8N's they will not idle. You have to drill it to .036 or even slightly larger to get it to work. Hope this helps.
Wow. Nice work Stan!
Thanks Stan. This is a NOS Schebler I picked up at Portland tractor show a year or so back.I will give it another look.