I met this fella about a year ago at the local Stop & Go convenience store.
He was on a motorcycle, I had my '19 Touring and he stopped me to tell about the 1912 he had inherited from his Dad.
He said he had never driven a T.......20 minutes later he had.......
He has decided it's not for him as much as he loves the car and is going to sell it.
He picked me up today and took me to look at the car.
All I can say is it's beautiful.
The engine number is 138087 and the body number is 131856.
The leather seats are completely original and in very nice condition.
The dash, hood shelves and door caps are still beautiful.
It also has a KW Master Vibrator mounted but not wired.
Too bad there is small dent in the brass radiator top tank but it's fairly minimal and the radiator looks fantastic otherwise.
The top SEEMS original but likely is not.......it's in too good a condition although the rear window is cloudy so looks right for the car.
It has a 12 rivet rear end and Hassler shocks all around.
The Prestolite tank looks good but one headlight is missing a burner and reflector while the other is complete with nice silver yet and missing only a glass.
All the other lights are there and in super nice condition........the screen on the bulb horn is even perfect.
The car has surely had A repaint and there is very nicely done, very thin, pinstriping on the wheel hubs and spokes. Nothing gaudy and very tastefully done.
I WISH I had taken my camera but I wasn't planning on seeing an OLD T in this kind of condition.
His Dad drove the car up until 2 or 3 years ago and all the cylinders have good compression.
I might be able to get photos Saturday if we can get together.
I know it's hard to say without photos but this car is remarkable shape.
SO......and I hate to ask but the question is.......what could he reasonably expect to get for the car?
Here is a thread from a while back on a 1912 Torpedo that sold, maybe it will serve as a guide:
Pictures of all the parts of the car are the only way to estimate the value Craig. 1912 Model T's have more changes over the 12 months of production model year than any other model year. Parts specific to 1912 model year are therefore tough to find, because certain parts may have only been used for a few weeks.
With a serial number that high the car was made perhaps in March or April 1912. A very interesting period of time! Please try to get the casting date codes from the cylinder block and head. Those will tell you exactly when the engine was produced. The car would typically have left the Highland Park factory within a week after the engine casting date.
I would put it on Tbay with a reserve of $20K.
Craig - Unless I missed it, what model is it? You really didn't say, but you DID say "seat(s)", so I would assume it's a "touring", right? Sure sounds like a nice car,....harold
Crap......it's a touring.
Thanks guys.......as I said I hope to get photos this weekend.
I got 40 some photos of this car today but this is WAY easier.......
Here are links to 49 high quality photos:
Nice. Is it for sale?
Yes it is Ed.
I hate to flood the forum but I guess I'm not the first one to do that.....
If this was a '19 like my Touring I wouldn't have to ask any questions.
I just want to do the best I can for my friend.
What's he asking for it, Craig ?
^ That's the rub Steve.
Obviously I want to do the best I can for him and that's why I'm, unashamedly, fishing here.
I'm certainly no T expert but I DO recognize added value in a car that hasn't been "restored", other than the paint of course.
Ebay is always an option but do a large percentage of REAL T guys do ebay?
It's not PURE fishing........I hope a lot of the people here are as excited about looking at this car as I was.....still am.......
Compared to my barn fresh 1912 touring, I see a number of major and expensive later parts, coil box, wheels, carb, rear end assembly just to name a few major ones. I'm sure the experts will find even more with closer examination, as I'm no 1912 expert.
The best way to get top dollar is to put it on eBay. Pretty good car, I have saved many of the excellent pictures because for the most part the car has most of the correct parts for a very late 1912 touring.
The horn tube (for one example) is unique for this model year variation with the elbow at the firewall.
Looking again my guess this was a typical 1950's paint job restoration with many late model parts replaced. A good start but the incorrect parts are going to be expensive.
I think you should give it a bath, fix the left headlamp , polish the brass and sell it as a near mint original car. Right now it looks like a barn find and I think it's more car than that.
Very nice original car, that has had a few changes from when it was purchased new. I can't help with a value because I'm not that familiar with 1912 T's. Someone would be real happy to get one that nice.
Royce, Is the small box with the coil a spare coil holder?
I noticed the wheels right away. what other parts are the wrong year?
I answered my first question by reading the original post.
Its a master vibrator.
Coilbox, front wheels & rear axle assembly incorrect for a few but a pretty nice survivor !
It's really tough to determine a fair value for an unrestored or older restoration. It's a very narrow market, but people that like survivor cars, often prefer them to restored cars. I prefer to buy unrestored cars, because they eliminate the risk of buying someone else's mistakes and poor restoration decisions.
I hope that your friend will find a buyer in the $15-$18,000 range. He may be able to hold out for more, but it will require finding just the right buyer. His car, while not exactly as it left the factory, has a lot going for it and would be a fun car to preserve and drive as is or, it would make a great start for a Stynoski quality restoration. There just aren't very many '12s out there.
Thank you everyone.
While EVERYTHING might not be 100% there are more than enough other things that are.
After seeing what a lot of lesser cars have brought on epay (which I watch like a hawk) we're going to aim a little higher.
I don't WANT to go the epay path but you have to do what you have to do.
Thanks again everyone.....
I'd ask $17500 if it were mine. $20000 might be a bit on the high side, $15000 might be too low. He might get $20000 but I feel $17500 is fair to both buyer and seller.
Craig, remember that if you sell on eBay, you have to get about 10% more to make up for the fees.
I'm VERY familiar with ebay fees Eric.......VERY....... *&^%$%^&*())(*())(*%^&
The owner is watching this thread so we're going to have a little pow-wow and talk about things.......
Ebay is the way to go for the most money. Yes you have fees to pay, but listings tend to get more money than a static listing on craigslist and in the end you will do ok.
I agree with Richard and Eric on the value. Finding a correct 12 rivet clamshell rear axle will cost at least a couple thousand bucks, perhaps double that. A proper set of wheels and hubs is going to be hard to find and cost another $1500 or so.
On the other hand the car has a lot going for it. For the restorer it has a lot of the obscure details in place that would be hard to replicate without anything to go by. For the person who wants it to enjoy as is, it is nearly ready to use.
Nobody mentioned the 1916-1927 front spring. But even with the "wrong" parts, it's a good one. It illustrates the fact that after 100 years very few of these cars are "pure".
What color is it? Is that 1912 Midnight Blue, or is it black? From what I've read, it's often hard to tell the difference.
I paid $15000 for my very similar 1912, at a farm auction. (see photo on my profile--after replacing Rad. and some lights etc etc.) I`d say that's a fair price for this nice original car. Paul
The body number you cite is on the brass patent plate on the dash. Is there a body number under the fore-door, or rear door and on the wood frame under the front seat cushion? If there is a letter and number, it may give us a clue to who the body manufacturer is. The design in the door panel upholstery is the same as my Beaudette body 1911 touring.
Also, do you have any detail photos of the gas lamp plumbing for the headlamps?
I can see a pinstripe on the back of the front seat. Can you detect any of the body pinstripe under the paint job? I'm particularly interested in the box area under the back of the back seat.
I'm glad the fore-door have not been removed!
Thanks for sharing the pictures.
: ^ )
eBay charges zero to list the car. If it sells you pay $125 for any vehicle over $2000 sale price. That's all. I've sold several cars on eBay, it has been effortless.
I always require the deposit be sent by overnight express or by wire transfer, with the balance due in full before the vehicle departs my property. Shipping is the responsibility of the buyer. If the car is not picked up within 14 days of the auction it will be considered abandoned if payment has been made or the buyer will forfeit the deposit if full payment has not been made.
Steve, the car is definitely black. I could find no evidence it was ever anything other than black.
Keith, what you see in the photos is what there is of the lighting.
It says something about this car that a prominent member here said he wished this car was in HIS garage......
I'm happy the owner's father didn't "restore" this car and appreciated it for what it is.
The 1911 T that spent a good many years in this village was sold to an industrialist back in the 60's and he "restored" it...... $#&*(*^$#$%^%)(^U%$$#@*&()*(*&.......but back then I guess that was the thing to do.
Here's a photo.
Thank you Royce......I have a Model A on ebay right now.
I think it was Eric Hylen(?) who said Model A's are front heavy, hard steering crash boxes.......and he's right!....... LOL.......which why I'm keeping my '27 Tudor instead.......
I purchased one of these internal 90 degree horn elbows because I thought it made sense for the late 12, where the horn flex-tube is mounted inside the car. Catalogs described these as a 1915 item?
cars are cheap to sell on ebay, not 10%
You guys have said the rear end is wrong but that is the correct rear end for a late 1912 our 12 has the same rear end ours is 146808 sept 1912.
Sorry guys, I was unaware that eBay gouges less for cars than for other products. I imagine the PayPal fees still get you where it hurts.
I routinely make fun of Model As, but I don't recall using that same verbiage. I still maintain that Ford quit building decent cars in May of '27 and speculate that Henry Ford might agree.
Lately, I've got early Maxwells on he brain so bad that it doesn't even bother me that they evolved into Chryslers.
Based upon past discussions on this forum, I believe that Colin M is correct. Late '12s did use the 12 rivet '13/'14 style rear end (which, by the way, was also used in a good number of early '15s). The car presented by Craig A appears to be a late July '12 car based upon engine number. I do not recall a date being given as to when the later 12 rivet housings were first used. Someone with better computer search skills than I may be able to find it. However, July is what I recall in my failing head.
All I know for sure is, I sure wish that I could afford to buy that car. I like it. The front wheels and coil box would go quickly! Most of the rest of it would clean up just fine. I would maybe paint it 1912 blue. Eventually.
Drive carefully, and enjoy, W2
The serial number is 138087 which would be late May - early June of 1912 (look at the casting dates Craig). The "1913" rear axle was mentioned in the record of changes as follows:
"JUN 13 Acc. 575, Letter 315, Ford Archives
T-2852 and 2853. New (1913) rear axle housings specified for use on 1913 cars."
I agree a 1913 axle would be typical by September for a car near 150,000.
The car is 17 miles away in the owner's girlfriend's mother's garage so it's not that convenient to look things over........ LOL
Looks like I'll have to make some notes.
Since this car has garnered a lot of attention I want to answer all the questions I can.
Not just to help sell the car but for historical accuracy.
It isn't every day one gets an opportunity like this.......
It's a shame the former owner had to mount the master vibrator right through the patent plate!
A former owner do doubt did that.......not the former owner.
In former post called 1912 barn find of sorts that 12 also has the same rear end a this one, it's ser.no starts 131===
Here's the poop.
The owner called this evening.......he has been paying attention to the forums.
The end of the story is whoever comes closest to $20K owns the car.
There will be no ebay......no nothing.
The several inquiries I have received are good enough for us as they have been honest, not low-ball, inquiries.......thanks mostly to THIS forum.......
That said I WILL attempt to gather what other details were requested before the car departs.
Colin, The sorta of barnfind 12 has a clam shell rearend that I came with.The truck rear end is also their. I
My mistake sorry Colin
Does it have a 15-16 coil box?
Bummer........ .......I sent my friend a message about going live with the ebay auction this evening and I just got a reply from him.
His Dad passed away this afternoon.
How ironic is that?
Off to the races....... http://www.ebay.com/itm/181508889029?ssPageName=STRK:MESELX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m15 58.l2649
Good luck Craig, somebody's going to get a really nice T. Sad to hear about the owners dad.
I'm just curious as to why the $1000.00 down payment goes to you and not to the seller. It costs nothing to get a Paypal account, except to possess a bank account, and they say you don't even have to have one of those. (They will cut you a check for the money).
That "might" scare some people, but may not. Depends upon how it's looked at.
He doesn't want to money with it.
Simple as that.......
It's ok lol. No need for the big letters
See it had an offer, wonder how much? I'll bet someone, somewhere, is going to make an acceptable offer on this car...even with the few things wrong, good early T's are getting hard to find...
I won't post this anywhere else but there is a 15K offer.
The auction was ended, so I wonder if it sold?
Russ and his lovely wife arrived in Stevens Point, WI, today shortly after 10 AM which worked out perfectly for everyone......
I won't speak for Russ but he is tickled to pieces over getting this car!
He said it's the most original one he has ever seen and there are a number of things on THIS car he is going to document.
We are so happy it went to Russ who also said he is NOT going to "restore" it and plans on driving the heck out of it....WAY TO GO!.......
In the first photo are Thom (the seller) and Russ and in the second are the three of us.
I've asked Chris to merge the two 1912 threads so if you can't find the other thread hopefully it will be here.
Craig: The car is going to a good home and I'm sure the up dated parts will be back to original as soon as possible. I hope you gave him a tour of your tractor shed. I have never seen so many nice early tractors in a nice shed like that before.
They didn't make it here Don........they were heading directly for Moline, IL, where the car will be further documented.
I had thought about going to Point with the '19 today but time didn't permit........it was a nice day too darn it....... ........so I took the '65 Mustang.......
I'm glad to hear that Russ got that car. Since he is the Chief Judge for the MTFCI, I expect that any changes he makes to the car will be "absolutely correct."
What a great car to have to work with! Congrats, Russ; you done good.
I checked out the number under the front seat and the car has a Wilson body (W61688). Interestingly, the number one is stamped upside down, so it initially looked like an "I"!! The car has some very late 1912/early 1913 features, and I believe the rear axle is correct for this car. It has a two-piece driveshaft, cast end radius rods and cast end brake rods....so while it is possible the rear end was changed..it does not seem logical. Also, it does not appear this car was ever disassembled.
The wood in the body is excellent and not one piece will need replacement, and the sheet metal is great...no rust anywhere. Thom was kind enough to give me the original Wisconsin registration form, which appears to be dated 1/13. He also included a matching pair of 1912 Wisconsin license plates, which appear to have been screwed to the rear of the body (not uncommon in those days). The registration form shows the car was registered in Wisconsin originally, so the lack of rust is quite amazing.
I want to thank Craig for being so helpful and if anyone has a question about the car, please let me know.
Congratulations on your new T! We will all be looking forward to an article about it in the future. If you would like to roll-the-dice, there is a bout a 20-22% chance that you might be able to find the car’s engine serial number listed in the Accounts Receivable Ledgers at the Benson Ford Archives. The ledgers are incomplete with approximately 75-80% of the dealers NOT listed. For the very early Fords 1908 and earlier Trent found that approximately 25% of the cars were listed. For the later dealers the number appears to have dropped closer to only 20-22% chance. If your serial number is listed, and if you could find it (it isn’t computerized yet – although that is something I am hoping we can eventually accomplish) it would give every one an additional data point on the 1912 model year cars.
Taking a quick look at the even smaller sample size Bruce McCalley used to do some estimates on the 1912 engine numbers – including the B-series engine numbers I did NOT find your car listed there. He compiled his data from Accession 623, "Accounts Receivable, 1904-1914," at the Research Center, Henry Ford Museum and Greenfield Village. If it had been listed then you would know that it was listed in the accession – but in this case you don’t know if it is or is not in one of the other ledgers. Ref: http://mtfca.com/encyclo/11-12Ser.htm The chart below uses the data Bruce compiled or the data from the thread at: http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/118802/119926.html where Royce was able to add a few addition engine numbers and shipping dates. It is a DRAFT and not a final product. And there could easily be some mistakes in it (never do math in public). If anyone finds some mistakes – please e-mail me so I can add the correction. And remember there are many other serial numbers that we do not have and that are not on the chart but were produced and shipped. Also note that the data does NOT include the B-serial number engines. The chart is based on actual serial numbers listed in the Accounts Receivable Ledgers. Some of those may be “outliers” but the next number is also listed at the thread mentioned above.
In the case of your engine number 138087 – it currently would fall within the engine serial numbers that were shipped in Jul 1912. Of course if you or someone else finds the shipping data – it may turn out that the car was shipped earlier or later than that Jul time frame. And we could up date the chart with that additional data.
Also thank you so much for sharing the Wilson body number for your car. Some day I hope we can find a useful pattern between the body numbers and serial numbers. Currently we do not have enough data except for the later 1914 and on Wilson, Fisher, Beaudett bodies that clearly have the year and month the body was produced next to the body number (or perhaps as part of it).
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