Did a couple rarer Kingston 5 Ball carbs over the last few days. The one with the upright flange is going on an early Stevens Duryea, the one with the screw flange -- I don't know what it's going on. These versions are seldom seen but are pretty much the same as the Kingston 5 balls used on the Model T Ford.
There seems to be a lot of variation in them even tho they are pretty much the same design. Time consuming to work on because everything must have been hand fitted to each one and to get it to work any piece made has to be hand fitted again. Some of them have seats that were soldered in, some have the seats cast. All are worn from the balls moving around on the seat every time the engine revs and air flow increases. I re-grind the seats and put in new brass balls or machine new seats and silver solder them in, then grind them to the proper height.
I have seen the flanged one with a horizontal throttle shaft, a vertical throttle shaft and no throttle shaft; the throttle shaft and butterfly being in the intake.
They are so small they are hard to work on, I have a needle and seat conversion that works fine but have to make the float as I can't find anything that will work. The bowl is usually bent and warped with lots of whack marks on it.
The Model T version of these tends to be more of a standard design, these vary a lot.
Note that the intake on both of these is threaded. Not all are.
Just thought you might like to see what I do all day and what a couple pretty rare carbs look like.
Beautiful work Stan. Bet they run great too.
Got any pictures of the insides of the 5 ball? I just need to see the bottom before the bowl goes on. I think I've got the rest. All my pictures I have of it don't show the under side of the main body. If you have a picture of that I'd sure like to see it. I know there is some sort of bridge, and a small tube like piece that extends down into the bowl, but just what exactly it looks like or where it fits under the body, that's a mystery to me.
Also I'd like pictures of the 4 ball and Rayfield too, just in case you have any handy, lol.
Stan, this is a working rough only. I'm using it to show what I'm looking for. What's under the main body, I can't draw what I can see.
All the pictures you've posted here only show the top side of the body, never the underside. On this one as you can see, I haven't finished even the top side yet. That's because I was trying to plan out the parts so I know what to put where. But without the bottom view, I can't finish.
Sorry, Martin, they are already in boxes and in the mail. Next one I do I'll try to remember to take some pics before I put it all together.
Do these help any??
Stan, yes they do, I was totally wrong in how the adjustment needle installed through the body. My thinking was that there was some sort of bridge with a hole in it to steady or seat the needle. But your pictures show that the seat is in a threaded cup that screws onto the bottom of the body...hmmm how best to show these new parts...maybe a section view or something? If I know how something goes together I can cross section it easily, flow on the other hand is something that you'd know best. But to do that I'd need to know exactly how the needle seated. But this is great to start with and all I really needed. Should have something for you to correct by tonight. Whee now the fun begins.
Don't forget about that Rayfield, lol.
In the section that screw up from the bottom, the one with the internal threads, there is a bridge across the inside that feeds fuel to the main jet. The main jet is a separate piece that screws into that bridge. You can just see the upper edge of it in the last photo.
"screws" Long day. Tired.
Will this help? This is the flanged one before restoration.
There are a bunch of different designs for the float mechanism in these, this is the best one I've seen. All original too, which is hard to find in this old stuff. This one came from Tim Eyssen in Witchita Falls, Texas. I bought it from him at Chickasha. It's going on a 1903? Stevens Dureya.
Stan, that float setup on the flange mount carb is pretty rare. That is the one shown in the first model T parts book put out at the end of 1908. I've only ever had one 5 ball with that float setup. Kim
Great pictures Stan, but all I can see on the last picture is looking down the intake with the throttle butterfly. Do you have a picture looking down the mouth of that "can" that goes up through the float (the one with the internal threads)? I know there is a hole near the bottom, does that hole go through to the other side or is it on one side only?
According to the parts list I've got that configuration on the float is on the 1909-1910 versions, the later one (1911) got the little bell crank sort of looking thing with I guess a rivet to hold it to the float. Is the float made of cork? Was there ever a brass float like in later kingston's (L-4 and the vaporizers)?
The one thing I've noticed with these things, the more you get into them, the more different configurations show up. I'm probably going to end up with 3 or 4 different Kingston 5 ball carb configurations, lol...fun never quits!
Stan, do you reuse the original cork float or is it replaced with something else?
I replace it with a modern needle,seat and float mechanism, then make a new float. I debated about this one but put the new one in. The problem with the cork floats is that they will gradually become soaked with fuel and quit floating. I have some material I make floats from that seems to work and keep working. Some of them have been out for 4 or 5 years and still float. The new gas dissolves a lot of stuff you are supposed to be able to coat floats with.
Kim, this is the first one of these I've ever seen. I kept the parts for reference. If it had been something I was going to run I'd have left the old needle and seat system, just reground the taper, tried the cork float, etc. But it was going to a restoration shop that wanted to just bolt it on and send it out the door to a customer so I needed to make sure it worked and would continue to work.
Martin, I'll try to remember to take some pics of the inside of the bottom piece. I have a couple more 5 ball carbs. They all vary a little. Maybe I should just send you one and you can do the drawings and send it back.
Stan, thanks for the offer, but I'd be afraid of losing some small but important piece of it and screwing it up.
Hap Tucker, sent me both illustrated parts list and the price list for this carburetor. On the illustrated parts list, there is a part called "SPRAY NOZZLE" (Main jet Kingston 4100) part number 4108. Problem is there are two of them on this diagram. This page covers both the 1909-1910 style and the 1911 style. Part 4108 as I said show two, one smaller than the other. Is the longer one for the later style (1911) or did both of these lengths show up in any year?
I dunno. I've never seen a parts list for htem.
Here's what Hap sent me...
Notice how 4108 appears twice, only difference being that one is longer than the other. The duplicate part numbers with the "B" were used on the 1911 version (I think).
I would have thought that 4127B would have been the four screw version, (probably just 4127) during the five ball time frame.
Does anybody know if there is a float valve seat at the base of the needle of the float valve.
What I'm trying to figure out is there a seat beneath 4104B.
Also where does the packing nut go? Does it go on the fuel inlet before the elbow or after?
Stan, I'm always amazed at the quality of work you do! Not only that I know it must take much patience. Keep up the good work my friend. KGB