Change transmission on early T

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Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2014: Change transmission on early T
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Kevin Holland, Utah on Friday, August 15, 2014 - 12:21 pm:

I have a 1916 rebuilt motor that runs like a clock. I am getting to old to crank it when I start it the first time in the day. After it runs awhile I have no problem. I have a not rebuilt 1927 motor and trans. My question is: can I install a late transmission on an early non-starter engine. Thanks in advance for all your input.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Trent Boggess on Friday, August 15, 2014 - 12:59 pm:

It will fit, but you will have to make up a new set of floorboards. The earlier pedals have a different spacing between the pedals than a 26-27 engine does.

Respectfully Submitted,

Trent Boggess


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Kevin Holland, Utah on Friday, August 15, 2014 - 01:07 pm:

Do I need to change the mag. ring and flywheel magnets?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Henry Petrino in Modesto, CA on Friday, August 15, 2014 - 01:16 pm:

Kevin,

I'm a little confused. What does changing the transmission have to do with cranking?

If you're meaning is to add a starter, then you will need a starter mag ring, a starter flywheel, and a starter hogs head. Also I've read that it is necessary to modify the fire wall a little too so the starter will fit. There should be no need to change the transmission in order to add the starter.

I hope this helps.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jeff V on Friday, August 15, 2014 - 01:16 pm:

You'll probably also want the generator in addition to the starter. It may be easier to determine what needs rebuilt on your '27 engine.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Lee Frost Pierce on Friday, August 15, 2014 - 01:24 pm:

I changed hogs head on my 1912 about five years ago, and only broke one spring, because the spark was advanced. Also, I did not have to change the floorboards.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bill Thompson on Friday, August 15, 2014 - 01:58 pm:

Later trans will not fit in 3 dip pan


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Doug Wilson on Friday, August 15, 2014 - 02:11 pm:

I have a 27 engine in my 21. I wanted to switch from the 27 petals to the earlier 21 petals. From what I read in the catalogs I thought there was a difference in the shafts. Removable ear bands vs. non removable ear bands. When I pulled the peddles from both hogsheads, they were identical, except for the peddles themselves. He can run his earlier peddles


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Matthew Atchinson on Friday, August 15, 2014 - 02:55 pm:

If you are going to switch transmissions, you will need to remove the 3 dip pan on your 16 engine and when you reassemble it put it back together using the 27 4 dip pan. This will allow you to use the large brake drum styled transmission of the 27, along with the mag cutout fly. in contrast you can simply take apart your 16 motor, which i believe has a cutout for starter? (not sure), and put in a starter mag ring, flywheel, and as stated use a starter hogs head.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dave Barker - Dayton, OH on Friday, August 15, 2014 - 03:44 pm:

Matthew - I don't believe the '16 block would have the mounts for the starter and bendix (or generator), as they didn't offer the electric package until 1919 model year (first available starter engines built December 11, 1918 per Bruce McCalley's book "Model T Ford - The Car That Changed The World"). Which means Kevin would need to use his '27 block, or some other block with the mounts, if he wants to use a stock starting system.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dave Barker - Dayton, OH on Friday, August 15, 2014 - 03:45 pm:

Excuse my previous (incorrect post). Brain flatulence.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Stephen D Heatherly on Friday, August 15, 2014 - 04:21 pm:

Kevin, in order to install a starter with 1916 transmission you would have to replace the flywheel with one from 1919 or later, replace the mag ring with one with a starter notch, and install a starter hogshead. If you install the whole 26/27 transmission you will have to install a four dip pan and 26/27 hogshead.

Stephen


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Kevin Holland, Utah on Friday, August 15, 2014 - 07:44 pm:

Thanks all for the input. Happy motoring, Kevin in Utah.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Wayne Sheldon, Grass Valley, CA on Saturday, August 16, 2014 - 01:07 am:

There are about a hundred possible combinations.
The first BIG question (assuming you already answered the other bigger question and are wanting to add a starter), is, do you want to add the improved brakes?
IF (big if), you are happy with the early (or whatever else you may have) brakes? You do NOT need to change the block, pan, floorboards, or drums and clutch of the transmission.
You DO need to change the flywheel (ring gear), mag coil ring (to match the flywheel magnets and clear starter shaft), hogshead (to mount starter of course), plus add battery and needed wiring.
The starter ring gear SHOULD clear the earlier pan (I haven't tried an '11 or earlier, still waiting for an answer on that one). Many dozens have used ring gears in '13 and later pans, but check yours closely before closing it up. One never knows, something could have been tweaked enough in the past hundred years. IF (there's that big if again) you want to use the later (larger) brake drum with improved clutch (or simply change the entire unit), however you wish to continue with your previous brakes? The drum SHOULD clear the pan and '19 to'25 hogshead. IT IS THE BRAKE BAND that will not clear if you change to the full "improved" brake. It is the BRAKE BAND that requires the use of the '26/'27 hogshead and four-dip pan to use the "improved" brakes. The earlier band (positioned by the '19/'25 hogshead) running on the front 2/3 of the larger drum has cleared and worked for many Ts. Again, be safe. Do a final inspection before you close it up.

Many people tour model Ts extensively without a working generator. It just requires routine battery charging. Or there is a trick to charge the battery from the magneto if it works well. Even on major tours, most Ts can run a couple days without a battery recharge. It is very easy to add a starter for those that need one and still maintain a "mostly correct" brass era engine. And if you have a nice running engine? All the more reason to not change the block away.

It can get very confusing. Many little parts changes through those years are backwards compatible, but not forward compatible. '26/'27 clutch discs (for instance) will fit and work in an earlier clutch/brake drum. But the earlier discs will not work in the '26/'27 clutch/brake drum (unless carefully trimmed, time consuming if done properly). The driven plate will NOT interchange either direction across the brake drum change. The bolt spacing is different by a very small amount.
Good luck!
Drive carefully, and enjoy, W2


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Peter Kable on Saturday, August 16, 2014 - 05:29 am:

Its only been mentioned by Henry Petrino and you may have missed it, that you also need to modify the fire wall as the early cast bracket on the right side is in the way and it and a piece of the timber will need to be cut away.

The easiest way is flywheel with ring gear, starter hogs head, fire wall modification and add starter button and battery.

I have this set up on the 1915 Kamper ( no Generator) When I drove across the USA the battery lasted 3-5 days with travel days of 200 to 300 miles per day. My magneto works so it was only for starting not running. I carried a second battery, when one got low it was changed for a the other and the low one charged overnight.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By jeff cordes on Saturday, August 16, 2014 - 06:16 pm:

You can also machine the ring gear groove in an early flywheel, we have done that a couple of times. You can also notch your old mag ring to clear the starter shaft. If you do that you only need a 19-25 hogs head cover. That is what we did on the last one. The customer liked his quiet transmission that was in the car and we decided to modify it to accept a ring gear so that we could guarantee it would be quiet.


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