Okay, I feel stupid asking this- I took my rear end and driveshaft apart to rebuild on my '17 Runabout- finished and am now re-assembling all of it. Got it all back together and the only way I can get my brake rods to correctly actuate is to hang the rods upside down (below the radius rods) now in the heck can that be? My I have a 1920 rear end (lower filler hole) but should that matter? Feeling very stupid and perplexed.
James, do you have the cam levers pointing up? They can easily be let drop into the down position, giving you the problem you have.
hope this helps.
Allan from down under
Yes, when cams are up: hand-brake pulled back cams horizontal, when brake is pushed fully forward- cams vertical. Totally baffles me...never had a T do this before. Nor can remember if this is how it was when I popped it all apart...never had brake rod issues before.
Allan- if I re-attach brake rods under the radius rods (cams pointing down) all is fine and it functions as it should. Wonder if the car was modified for this- I don't have any rod supports either...gone.
James, The brake rods on my '16 have a double "kink" that allows them to fit over the top of the radius rods, do yours have that configuration or could you have the brake rod in backwards?
James, did you assemble the cams on the wrong sides?
My brake rods have a raised section yes and they do raise above the radius rods- but that doesn't matter with the cams nor get in the way.
Stephen- I didn't take apart the cams- they are still stock Ford riveted together since when they were built- never touched.
James, Stephen has a point. If you have the wheels off, check that the cams are level and the lever is leaning back at the top. In this situation, when the handbrake lever is pulled on, the cam lever is pulled forward.
If they are installed on the incorrect side, the orientation of the cam leavers will be forward. If the rods are connected, then the handbrake lever will be in the pulled back position.
You may be right when you suggest that they were installed with the levers pointing down. I need to do this on my shooting brake. With the Ford rods connected as usual over the radius rod, they get in the way of the rods on my Bennett accessory brakes, so I have not fitted them. Whenever I have the wheels off, I will swap the cams from one side to the other, so I can have the Ford rods go under the radius rod.
This may sound silly, and embarrassing if it is so, but is the drain plug still on the right side of the diff? I believe it is possible to turn the two diff halves upside down, and still assemble the innards so the car will drive forward as usual. But the drain plug will be high on the left side of the car!
Hope this helps.
Allan from down under.
James, delete that last paragraph. I wrote that while trying to get my footy team over the line on TV. That didn't work either! While the assembly can be put together up side down, that would put the spring perches at the bottom. Sometimes I should try to be less helpful.
Allan from down under
Is the rear axle installed upside down? Which side is the oil filler plug on?
put your shoes and springs in and the wheels on, even if you don't tighten up the axle nuts yet. In that position, the lever on the wheel should be back of straight up. When you push the wheel lever all the way back as far as it will go and the parking brake lever as far front as it will go, the rods should go right on. The clevis pins should go in without forcing anything. Then when you pull back on the parking brake lever, the brakes should lock with the wheel lever near the straight up position. If that is not the case, your rods might be too long and need an adjustment or even cut and threaded to tighten more. Note, before you cut and thread, be sure you need it. That is a step which cannot be reversed!
If you have the Model T Ford service manual look on page 155 starting with paragraph 631. There are some close up pictures showing the rear axle and location of the brake rods, levers and etc.
Seeing pics helps me get things assembled correctly and occasionally I have to make comparisons.
A picture can say a thousand words. It really has help me more than a few times.
Yes, my filler hole in the diff is on the right side (passengers side) below the midline as it should be. The problem is that when I connect the rods normally, rods above radius, the cam position is already forward of the Noon position with lever forward and so when I pull the service brake back to lock up wheels, the cam is far forward= flat cams. I'll take some pics today.
And don't forget to install the drive shaft housing with the grease fittings pointing up. My project for today...
Okay two images: first one is my cam lever position normally without rod connected, 2nd pic is the cam level connected upside down to show position. I can take more but haven't had my coffee yet this morning...
Pictures? Sounds like the LH and RH brake levers are swapped, causing the levers to want to face forward when the cams are in their resting position.
The levers should face aft when in the resting position, like so:
Oops, sorry James, we must have been posting at the same time, I see you have now posted pictures.
It sure looks like your brake levers are swapped. I know it's a pain, but drive out the pins and swap the levers left to right so that the levers tilt aft when the cams are in their resting position.
Here's a picture of the position with the brake set. James, your levers should not be over center forward with the brake not set. I believe someone has installed the brake cams swapped side to side at some point in your car's past. You may have to drill out the rivets and swap them back to the proper sides.
The levers are both the same, no left or right. It's the cams that need to be swapped. The cams come in left and right. So you need to switch the cams.
Oops, my bad, thanks for the correction, Mark. Either way the rivets must me driven out (a pain).
Okay, so if I embark down upon this road- how the heck do I re-rivet them? Where are these rivets found and how do I do it? Sounds daunting.
Lemme ask the obvious question- what happens if I left the brake rods upside down?
They should work the same ether way as long as you don't install outside brakes and the levers are over center to the rear like your second photo. These brakes, even if lined shoes are used, are parking brakes, not really stopping brakes anyway.
The parts vendors have the rivets. To remove the existing rivets, drill about 2/3 of the way through them with a bit slightly smaller than the rivets, then drive out what's left using a drift.
I don't see why they wouldn't work OK upside-down until you get a round tuit.
I am already looking at Larry's AC brakes so this will be something I'll need to do in the future.
Question for someone who has already done this....I assume this is done on the car. How did you manage to smack the rivets while on the car- did you rig up a bucking bar to stand on the ground while you hit the rivet with a ball hammer?
I use tension pins on the cam arms - there's two of them so the chances of both of them BOTH coming loose is slim to none.
Steve- are the tension pins strong enough to withstand the turning torque action of the brake lever?
Maybe it's an illusion, but it looks in the photographs that both James and Royce's brake arms are each held on with a single, larger rivet, as opposed to the two smaller rivets/pins in the photograph of my setup.
Am I seeing things, or was this a change?
No, illusion- I have two in each arm.
Thanks to all who chimed in- I reversed my cams and the rods sit perfectly on top of the radius rods now. Turns out not only were the cams wrong, but the brake shoes were flipped and nothing had cotter pins anywhere....ugh! I saved it and it is back together with a shiny coat of Rustoleum Gloss black on it.
Thanks again to all!
Well done, James, good luck with the AC brake installation, did you get my response to your PM?
Got it and need to study your work- thanks, Mark. I Was driving when it came in to my mail and haven't been back to it yet.