**1909-1910 Kingston Model 4100 (5 Ball) Carburetor Assembly**

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Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2014: **1909-1910 Kingston Model 4100 (5 Ball) Carburetor Assembly**
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Martin Vowell, Sylmar, CA on Wednesday, August 20, 2014 - 09:01 pm:

I was going to wait a bit until I got further information concerning the float valve seat, but then I got to thinking that if I wanted further information, I'd better post the damn thing and ask everybody if they know if there was one or not. I can't find it in the parts list nor the illustrated one and from all the pictures I've got I haven't seen one either. But I figure their has got to be one...right? If any of you know what it looks like, please post a picture of it so I can include it in the assembly.



Also does anyone know where the hell the packing nut goes on the fuel inlet? Does it go before the elbow or after? I've got a part number for it, but I haven't seen one in the pictures Stan's posted.

My other question is, is the float needle right for this year or is this the 1911 style?

Stan if you want your replace float valve assembly included in this drawing, now's a good time to tell me. :-)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mark Strange on Wednesday, August 20, 2014 - 09:02 pm:

Martin, your drawings are great, thankyou so much for putting in all the work to create them! :-)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Richard Eagle Ida Fls on Wednesday, August 20, 2014 - 10:06 pm:

Your work is amazing but I particularly like this one. It is very well suited to your technique.
Rich


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Nicholas Lingg - Tarboro, NC on Wednesday, August 20, 2014 - 10:12 pm:

I think 4109 should go below 4102 it's what holds the bowl on


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Stan Howe Helena, Montana on Wednesday, August 20, 2014 - 11:50 pm:

That's pretty amazing, Martin. I'll try to get you some pictures next week.

There is no gasket on the caps.

I don't know if the parts drawings show it but in the ones I've worked on there is a vent riser that screws into the threaded hole opposite the float depressor.

Copper crush washer goes above the hex on the threaded cone that screws up from the bottom through the bowl.

Part 4119 has a hex.

There is a small threaded piece that screws into the top of the float arm to hold the float valve in place.

I have never seen the throttle plate held on with screws. It is held in the shaft by a piece of wire through the holes and crimped.

Assembly 4109 screws up from the bottom of the bowl, 4124 slips on to the threaded stud on 4109 and is held in place by nut 4125.

The float valve seat as supplied is just a small hole in the inlet. It is not replaceable as it is not a separate part.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Keith Townsend ; ^ ) Gresham, Orygun on Thursday, August 21, 2014 - 12:25 am:

Martin-
Although I have never worked on a 5-ball, the float and needle assembly is very similar to the Kingston L. On that one there is an itty bitty "nut" that would thread onto your part 4104-B to hold the 4103-B into place. should there be one there?

As always, nice work.

: ^ )
Keith


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mike Husted on Thursday, August 21, 2014 - 03:22 am:

I believe I have one of them. It looks like the
illustration anyway.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Martin Vowell, Sylmar, CA on Thursday, August 21, 2014 - 03:31 am:

4109 screws up from the bottom and holds the bowl on? Wow, that something I didn't see. This is going to make some major placement changes in the drawing. Ok I'll re-lay it out and make that change. Is there a gasket between the bowl and it? I would think it would need something to get it from leaking.

Stan, on the parts list I've got the "throttle plate" which I assumed was the disk had screws and part numbers for them. But maybe those never made it production and they went with the typical bent wire staple looking thing as you find in every other Kingston, I'll make that change too.

"Small threaded piece that screws into the top of the float arm", do you have pictures of that piece?

Is there a gasket 4110 on the bottom of 4109 or is that gasket supposed to go someplace else? I mean I could've misunderstood what they were referring to and it could be the one under the cap for the float valve, which I don't have a part number for.

If there is no seat for the float valve, does that mean with the float valves assemblies which you manufacture. The hole/seat that old needle fit into have to drill out and tapped for your valve assembly? Or is there more to it than that? What drill tap size do you use? Probably nobody will want to attempt that procedure themselves, but just in case I thought the information should be supplied.

Also Stan, is this the configuration for 1909-1910? Or is it the 1911 configuration? Or are they so darn interchangeable (what I fear) that it would be useless to try to label them as really belonging to one or the other? Because I still have the other float valve configuration to post and choke assembly for what I thought was the 1911 assembly.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mike Husted on Thursday, August 21, 2014 - 03:33 am:

Stan is right there is a vent across from the float depressor


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Martin Vowell, Sylmar, CA on Thursday, August 21, 2014 - 03:57 am:

Oh I don't doubt he's right on anything he's said and I appreciate anything he can provide me with to correct my drawing as I appreciate any of the people here who have something to tell me about any of my drawings. If not for all of you my drawings would be woefully inaccurate.

Do you know what it looks like? I don't have any pictures of it...I think, but I'll check and see.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Kim Dobbins on Thursday, August 21, 2014 - 07:43 pm:


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Martin Vowell, Sylmar, CA on Thursday, August 21, 2014 - 08:18 pm:

Hmmm these are very interesting drawings, who made them? According to the parts list I got from Hap Tucker the part numbers are totally different. But it does show the screws like on of the parts list for the throttle plate and the screw that holds the float lever to the float. And from this drawing I can see that packing nut goes on the end of the elbow, is it supposed to have the felt packing inside, I'm assuming it does, it would have to have something to compress against the fuel line.
Very odd shape on the float too.
I'll have to study this drawing a bit, but for now these are the changes we discussed.



I rotated the bowl 90 to show the hinge pin for the float lever and to get a better balance on the lay out arrangement. I also placed screws for the throttle plate assembly as an alternate configuration.

I looked at some of my pictures that I've downloaded from here and sure enough there is a breather vent on the opposite side of the primer assembly...however I don't have a part number for it, if any of you know what it is, please tell me and I'll add it to the drawing.

As always if you see anything out of place or I've forgotten, please let me know. :-)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Martin Vowell, Sylmar, CA on Thursday, August 21, 2014 - 09:06 pm:

Oh I forgot to add this to my last post, that I used the Kingston L-4 part number for the wire brad that holds the throttle plate. This may not be correct, because the hole spacing may be different, but I'm gambling that it's pretty close if not the same.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Kim Dobbins on Thursday, August 21, 2014 - 11:15 pm:

Martin, the drawings I posted are most likely from Kingston. Ford used two series of part numbers for the 5 ball. In the 1908 parts book, the 5 ball carb is listed as part number 553 and the rest of the parts start at 2101.
In the June 1909 parts book, all the parts are re numbered. The carb is 4100 and the rest of the part numbers begin with 4101. The 3000 series numbers are most likely only Kingston factory numbers. Where did you get the info on the hot air heater, 4137 and 4136?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Martin Vowell, Sylmar, CA on Friday, August 22, 2014 - 07:41 am:

Kim, I got it from an illustrated parts list that Hap Tucker sent me along with the price/parts list.





Couldn't tell you how this gizmo is supposed to fit, but from the looks of the other side it fits over the end (towards the fan) of the exhaust manifold. And to do that it would have to be for the later version 1911 the one with the 45 air intake and choke. That's the year the parts list claims had the choke version.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Martin Vowell, Sylmar, CA on Friday, August 22, 2014 - 07:50 am:

As you can see the part/price list doesn't have all the numbers, so I figured that the part probably was for both carbs.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Martin Vowell, Sylmar, CA on Friday, August 22, 2014 - 07:59 am:

Looking at the part number sequence, I'd say that pipe and manifold cover go only on the later 1911 version and I should take it off this drawing.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Kim Dobbins on Friday, August 22, 2014 - 11:20 am:

Ok, that is correct, the hot air pipe only go with the 1911 carb. I've never seen Any Ford info relating to a hot air pipe or spark arrester on the 1909 style carbs although, there are a couple of different versions for that carb. Very nice work on your drawings!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mike Husted on Friday, August 22, 2014 - 11:35 am:

If you look at the early version it has no drain
valve on the float chamber? The 1910 does have it, and carries through the 4balls.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mike Husted on Friday, August 22, 2014 - 11:39 am:

Now that we have the information to date them,
I'm ready to sell mine.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Martin Vowell, Sylmar, CA on Friday, August 22, 2014 - 04:35 pm:

When I was drawing this one I was pretty much going by Stan's pictures and not the illustrated parts list. None of the ones I've seen had that drain on it. Maybe what I've got to do is make this one 1909, then add the drain to the bowl and make that 1910 and then on the next drawing (which is almost done) add the pipe setup on the 1911. But if the 45 inlet pipe came out in late 1910 did it also have the hot air pipe setup? If so, would that make the drawing title correct to say 1910 (late) - 1911?

You see, this is what happens all the time, I start out with one and end up with more than I thought their would be, lol. Fun never quits! :-)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mike Husted on Friday, August 22, 2014 - 06:41 pm:

Is there any reference to the serial number on
the carburetor?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Kim Dobbins on Friday, August 22, 2014 - 07:04 pm:

Mike, the earliest 5 ball I have ever had is 97,XXX. Most are in the 100,000- 130,000 range.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mike Husted on Friday, August 22, 2014 - 10:24 pm:

The one that came with the car is# 125439 which is a 9 carb, the other one I got is#194971 which is for 10. No one has mentioned it, if numbers are mentioned any where? I wonder how these numbers would match production figures.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Martin Vowell, Sylmar, CA on Saturday, August 23, 2014 - 08:53 am:

Here's my revised drawing of the I guess 1909 - (early) 1910 Version.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jem Bowkett on Saturday, August 23, 2014 - 01:42 pm:

I have 160579 with drain tap, vertical inlet, tapered cork float per Kim's drawing, and it's RHD.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Martin Vowell, Sylmar, CA on Saturday, August 23, 2014 - 06:58 pm:

Hmmmm... lets do it this way.

Early version of 1909



Later version of 1909 and early version of 1910



The other air inlet with hot air pipe will be taken up with the late 1910 to 1911 version.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Keith Townsend ; ^ ) Gresham, Orygun on Saturday, August 23, 2014 - 10:21 pm:

Does the drain come out the side of the bowl or the bottom?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Martin Vowell, Sylmar, CA on Saturday, August 23, 2014 - 11:06 pm:

All the ones I've seen Keith, it comes out the side right about the corner of the bottom of the bowl. It seems strange, because at that angle it couldn't drain all that well you'd think.



This is one of Stan's pictures and it's a 1911, but as you can see it comes out off the bottom side.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Martin Vowell, Sylmar, CA on Saturday, August 23, 2014 - 11:15 pm:

I guess another reason is with the air intake on the bottom there is no other place low enough to put the drain, except where they put it.


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