This is the fourth in a study of Improved models and their differences. We just completed the study of the rear axle assembly and its parts in the first three threads (still being discussed). There is not much I know of to say about the axles. The only thing that may be of interest or concern is the casting dates. Some of the axles will have casting dates (not all, just some). While any of the axles will interchange, and you could have a 1926 casting date for example, in a 1927 car, and probably be accepted as "correct". It would not be "correct" to have an axle with a casting date later than your car. I am working on a very early 1926 non starter, that was made sometime in calendar 1925. The axle I have shown in the pics is dated 6-2-26. So for my project, Its incorrect to use that axle. I bring this up, to illustrate a point of the "dates of changes", that we are trying to find for the Improved models various parts. While a "date of change" may give us a definite time a part came into use, it does not say when they were put on at the factory or branches. But it does give us a very good time line of "do not use before a certain date" This may not be of use to lots of people, but a person trying hard to be "as correct" as possible it would help. I was going to do this study, as the entire front axle assembly. But I believe there are a couple items that need their own study, so please bear with me as we progress with the parts. If anyone knows about any differences other than the casting and foundry marks, we would love to hear about them. Any comments yea or nay, I agree or dis-agree, or I just think it is a stupid idea, are welcome. By keeping the thread as Improved models parts specific as possible and thread drift to a minimum, I believe there are things to be learned ... Thanks for all the input so far ....
Sometime during '26 or '27, the front axle gained a "dip" between the perches. I don't have a picture of it, but I'm sure someone here does.
There was a picture of one this morning.
The "casting date" is not really a casting date. It is likely the date that the forging die was made. I wonder how long a forging die lasted??
Mike, I went out and looked at my late 27 touring, It has the "dipped" axle and the one I pictured above with the 6-2-26 date on it is straight. Jim: a "forging die date" does make sense. Then, all the different letters, symbols, and dates I've seen on axles, may just be "tool and die" makers marks. ??? I thought this was going to be a simple, no change item. Now "look" what ya'll have done Thanks for the input, that is the whole purpose of the studies .... If anyone has a good pic of a "dipped axle" Please post it so we can see it. I think it will be hard for me to get a good photo of the one on my car and show much detail ...
Most 26/27:s over here in Europe has a distinctly different front axle made in Ford's Trafford Park, UK factory. The drop frame parts were introduced for 1925 but for 1926/27 new US made spindles and front springs were used so even if the spindles were raised a bit compared to 1925 drop frame models, the new lower arc front spring made the front end still about 3" lower then earlier Fords. The radius rod was again over the axle, but cones in the perches made the assembly much stronger than the pre 1919 style.
Here's a comparison between the drop frame and the regular front axle in the price list:
(picture from Hap Tucker)
And here's a detail picture of how the radius rod sits on drop frame cars:
(picture by Herve Cedric showing his '25 - note the max dropped spindle that wasn't used in 26/27.)
My '27 (engine number indicates March production date) has the radius rods under the axle rather then above it as in the photo above.
I was always told,dated front axles came from TT trucks. I even have one with a different date on each side.
John - all US and Canadian made Model T's had the wishbone under the axle after 1919. Drop frame cars are a strictly european oddity
Have several axle with dates, one is Sept '23, another with '24, and it came on my very real barn find, not messed with late '24.
According to Bruce's CD and Trent's research, the steel analysis type is mostly found on front axles, the "AA" is later, as in 8-3-20 the "X" was dropped.
And in 5-7-20 the forging were marked "AAX"
Now for the 1926, late axle with the 'droop', that was done on 8-2-26 and can be found on most all the 1927 year Fords.
Swoop front axles
Dan, Some very good information. Jack stating he has an axle with a different date on each side, makes sense, when the dates are a manufacture date of the "die". You would need a "top" and "bottom" die in the forging operation. So If only one was worn out and needed changed, they would only need to change one of them. As to only being used on TT trucks (dated axles) I do not think they would have tried to keep track of each forging, just for the TT. It may be one of the "folklore" things that show up when discussing the Model Ts. I took a few photos of my 6-2-26 dated axle and the axle on my very late 1927 touring. It was hard to get a good shot of the late 27 dipped/swoop axle on my 27. The orange string is stretched from the same point on either axle. It shows the swoop fairly well, although it does not appear to be as much "swoop" in the photos as in person looking at it.
I looked thru 25 axles today. I have no droop/dip type axles, other than the one on my late 27 touring. I did find a date of 7-9-25 (on a "straight" axle), to add to the list of die stamping numbers. So these are my thoughts so far. If the "date of change" to the droop/dip type of axle is 8-2-26, That would indicate that all 1926 models will have a "straight" no dip type of axle, and then 1927 will have the dip/droop axles with possible, and very likely, overlap of the straight axles, because of different branches, and using remaining stock. So this is another part to consider if trying to build a "correct" car. Since a dip/droop axle is not "correct" for a 26 model. Comments.??? right ?? wrong ?? crazy. ??? Thanks again for the input.
Donnie -- Sounds pretty accurate to me. (I know you're crazy, but that's beside the point. )
Roger, I forgot to say thanks for the "other side of the world" info. Its always amazing to me, how many differences there are in cars made outside the US from US cars. Those "drop frame" axles would be a hit with the speedster guys, over here. If you have an extra (or two)and want to just ship it this way to a very willing person, Ill take one .. Thanks again for your input ....
Dan, where did you find the 8-2-26 "date of change" number.?? I would lie to add it to my notes as a reference. Thanks for your input, you have brought up some good info so far.
The axle info is contained on Bruce's CD Ency. A much better and complete version of the Bruce's famous book, but full of more detail info. If you are into finding details you need this CD set, costs about $50 and sold by his widow.
Front Axle Section, p 4. and p5. Research article by Trent Boggess is contained there:
Some of this detail:
T-202-B1 axle was curved too, but not like the later '26. Mfg by Herband, marked with 'H'
T-202-B2, was straight axle, design came out Sept 1920, and mfg by Transue Williams, marked with TW in a diamond or circle.
Late '26, Aug 1926, the 'swoop' axle, top of axle is 1/2" lower in the middle, with a true 1" sweep between the perches, can be easily recognized.
And the "truck axle", around the same time, known at that name as this axle is thicker and of heavier weight.
Bruce's CD is rather great ref. , everybody needs one, and it is so easy to search when loaded on your computer, and you can expand text and pictures to view with ease. Lots of data, catalogs, price list, searchable by fac number for each and every little part on the Ford chassis!
"T-202-B2, was straight axle, design came out Sept 1920, and mfg by Transue Williams, marked with TW in a diamond or circle."
I had thought that the T-W marked axles were earlier, up to '15 or so. I have seen several (and am hoarding a couple for later use) with that mark and the T-202 number.
Dan, would the ones referred to above (1920-26) have a T-202-B2 on them, or just the T-202?
Just not enough of an expert on axles to know.
Have repeated the info as stated by Trent, you would have to discuss this more with him.
At least in my garaged T's are examples of these mfg. marks on axles:
'H' mark, (H inside a diamond like shape outline) ,for Herband, it is the AAX steel.
TW mark, (T over W), for Transue Willams, its also AAX steel.
Yes! That last picture appears to be the T-202B2 one Trent mentioned beginning in 1920. I have not seen any like that, so apparently the ones I have are the early ('15-back) ones. Thanks, Dan.
Dan, I think I will order the CD tomorrow. Is it the same CD sold by Langs or do I need to order it from the family.
Guess Lang's sells it too, but I ordered from Barbara:
Bruce McCalley's Model T Encyclopedia available on CD's.The Encyclopedia is an expanded version of his book"Model T Ford, The Car that Changed the World", and includes data never before published anywhere.
Available from: Barbara McCalley,308 Cottingham Court, Allison Park, Pa. 15101. (412) 364-0561: firstname.lastname@example.org $50.00 + $5.95 shipping.
I have what seems to be a 1927 front end set-up. Axle, spindles, wish bone, tie rods perches minus spring. Rusty, but inside storage now for 50 years. The spindles are the 26-27 style. Any value? I will be busy the next few days, but will take a photo when I can.
Darel, Please post it on the classified section, or as a separate post. You will get a better response that way. There is some value, mostly depending on condition. I am hoping to keep these "a study of posts" with as little thread drift as possible. That is why Im trying to steer you to the other options ... Thanks ...
I have what I believe is a front axle set up for a 1927 T, wish bone, axle, tie rods and spindles. Threads on the spindles are poor due to rust. The set up is rusty, but has been inside for 50 years. Is it worth keeping? I will post a picture next week. The axle looks the same as in this post.
Okay, I most likely are not looking to just to sell it, but to get it to a good home to someone locally you needs one. I will post it under for sale when needed. What I want now is identification. I will post photos next week.