Another 26 27 part Ive never seen ...

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Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2014: Another 26 27 part Ive never seen ...
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Donnie Brown North Central Arkansas on Tuesday, September 09, 2014 - 10:06 pm:

While working on the very early 1926 non starter rust bucket touring, I found another part Ive never seen before. It is the trim piece at the bottom of the steering column. At first I though it was modified, but after looking close it appears too good to be just a cut and fit it type of thing. If it was modified it was very well done as to symmetry. The offset between the mounting holes is "flatter" on the smaller one and is uniform in the offset. The offset is also tapered on the larger one. The large one is from my parts stash. I had 6 of them and no more of the small ones. The smaller one is the one that was on my early 26 car. Has anyone seen the smaller one before.?? or is this one more of the unique parts to torment me on this early 26. :-) :-) :-) The part also has design issues, just like lots of the other early features, that were later changed (improved) to something else.

trim

trim 2


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dale L Myers on Tuesday, September 09, 2014 - 11:15 pm:

This is on my Oct 1925 built roadster


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jack Daron - Brownsburg IN on Tuesday, September 09, 2014 - 11:20 pm:

I think there are others. The sedan was different.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dan Treace, North FL on Tuesday, September 09, 2014 - 11:25 pm:

Here are the early dash to steering column plates on an original Nov 1925 Improved runabout. Two pieces are used to secure the square flange on the column. I think the early cars used these 2 parts.




engine side


inside body view

Typical small plate only is Part # 3515, and used by itself on later open cars.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Donnie Brown North Central Arkansas on Wednesday, September 10, 2014 - 09:34 am:

Thanks everyone. As long as I have been messing with Ts its amazing how many things I still learn. Dan I am confused (normal), You say "two pieces are used to secure the square flange on the column" I only see one part (the small trim plate). Am I missing something.?? So if Im understanding this correct, the early cars used the small( weak poor design) trim plate and then remaining production used the larger trim plate. And there may also be more types out there, including a 4 door version.???? thanks again ...


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dan Treace, North FL on Wednesday, September 10, 2014 - 12:48 pm:

Donnie

I don't have a better way to show as don't have the separate parts. But if you look carefully at both the Oct and Nov car pics, you can see the 'small' plate is recessed into the cowl opening. That plate is held with round head machine screws with square nuts. The part is spanning the opening of the cowl.

Then the larger plate is bolted to the small plate, to hold the steering column flange. That larger plate has a lower lip that helps make a continued flange for supporting the edge of the upper wood floor board. Bolts are the carriage bolts that clamp the steering column.

Later, only a one-piece plate was used that has the lower lip for supporting the floorboard.

Of course, the Fordor cowl is very different, and another plate is used for that model. Part #3515B


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By arnie johansen on Wednesday, September 10, 2014 - 02:54 pm:

Can someone comment about the two plates Donnie Brown has in his original post? In particular the two holes that are farthest apart seem to have a different "flange". All of the other pictures appear to have the flange cut off at about a 45 degree angle, but one of Donnie's appears to have what I will call a rectangular pad, rather than one edge cut off at about 45 degrees. I was looking at a July 1st, 1927 parts list and on page 21 it only shows the "Flange" with the 45 degree angle. Does anyone else have have these larger ones? Also could it be possible that the larger ones were not used on open vehicles?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By arnie johansen on Wednesday, September 10, 2014 - 03:10 pm:

Donnie, what bracket is on your 1927 vehicle? Is it the large one?????????


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Donnie Brown North Central Arkansas on Wednesday, September 10, 2014 - 03:45 pm:

Dan, I think I understand what you are saying, but I just can not see it. I think the resolution of the pics will not let me see it. Arnie: Ill post a couple separate photos of my parts again. The one with the aprox 45 degree cut corners (small one) is the one on my early 1926 (pre Dec 12th.1925) Then the larger one is like the one on my late 27 touring, I have 6 of that style in my parts stash. I believe that style (larger) to be the later (last) version. It corrects all the poor design features of the smaller one. Dan: you may have to take your car apart for me to ever see it ...:-) :-) :-)

small plate from my early 26 touring.

small plate

larger plate like on my late 27 touring and I have 6 more like it.

large plate

edge view showing the difference in the depth of the offset stamping.

edge


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By arnie johansen on Wednesday, September 10, 2014 - 03:57 pm:

Since Donnie's small bracket had the support for the floorboard and Dan's part apparently did not, makes me think that perhaps someone cut off the support on Dan's part. Would it be possible for someone then to cut off the side flanges on another part and then just bolt it all up to have floorboard support? Of course it does not explain why someone would cut off an edge just to replace it with another part.

Perhaps the proper question to ask, is does anyone else have a bracket that does not have the support for the floorboard integral with the part?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Donnie Brown North Central Arkansas on Wednesday, September 10, 2014 - 04:31 pm:

Arnie, I think Dan's car is a pretty well unmolested barn car. But who knows what has happened in the last 80 or so years. Its possible Dan's part is a earlier version than mine, Henry was always trying to make things cheaper and easier. But from about Aug 25 till the end of Dec 25, there were lots of running changes made to correct, "weak" points in the design of the Improved Models. There were changes made later but it appears that after Jan 26 most of the design problems were being solved.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dan Treace, North FL on Wednesday, September 10, 2014 - 04:35 pm:

Hey guys

Sorry :-( My bad. That piece for the bracket is only one piece, don't know what I was thinking about 2 pieces.

Agree, one of those was modified and hole got cut away. Should be just 2 holes on the wings to hold the bracket to the firewall.


This is the #3515 bracket in black, the fasteners are not correct factory way.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dan Treace, North FL on Wednesday, September 10, 2014 - 04:41 pm:

The parts book picture of the 3515-B, that is a different bracket for the Fordor, does not look like the bracket in Donnie's first picture.

So maybe the top pictured bracket, in Donnie's first photo is for early cars, and the lower pictured bracket was a running change to the 3515?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Donnie Brown North Central Arkansas on Wednesday, September 10, 2014 - 08:13 pm:

Dan, Thanks for "fessing-up" I thought I was going blind :-). If you notice on the small plate with 45 degree corners, It is a poor design. It is weak in the corners of the 45 degree cut , and will crack easily, It is too small, and allows 4 holes for air to get in around the steering column and floor boards. The small plate is what is on Dan's and my cars. Both being early 26 cars (made in calendar 25). I feel like they are the style, that is correct (poor design)for early cars. Then the larger plate, is a much better design. It has nice round corners in the stamping, it overlaps the firewall for a tighter fit, and also a more solid fit. I do not know when the change over actually happened but the larger plate was probably used for the bulk of production. Every plate I remember seeing has been the later larger design. I still have never seen a 4 door plate but do know they are different. These will be addressed later in the studies, when I get to the cowl area, so I hope to get a photo of a Fordor plate by then. Thanks for the help everyone....


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dan Treace, North FL on Wednesday, September 10, 2014 - 10:37 pm:

Donnie

Thanks....just wasn't thinking right on the subject. As for the Fordor part, here it is.

Parts book photo of the Fordor Part # 3515B


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jack Daron - Brownsburg IN on Wednesday, September 10, 2014 - 11:12 pm:

Here is picture Of one I have.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jack Daron - Brownsburg IN on Wednesday, September 10, 2014 - 11:18 pm:

If you look at the clamp that goes under steering column where it fastens to dash,the early ones were thick,almost like fender stock.Later they were very thin.These were painted black and the got stacked together before assembly.Installer would grab some and and have found 2-3 stuck together,Once I had one with 4 of them stuck very tight and yet installed.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Tom Miller, Mostly in Dearborn on Thursday, September 11, 2014 - 06:05 am:

Jack, Your plate looks like it's the upper part of the later Model A steering column and pedal set up.

Model A first used a rubber covered "waffle" and then went to a two piece steel plate.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Donnie Brown North Central Arkansas on Thursday, September 11, 2014 - 09:35 am:

Tom and Jack, I also have a plate like Jack shows in his photo. I believe it is for a Model A. Also, the spacing of the 2 slotted holes does not match the spacing of a model T steering column flange. Dan, there is a current thread about TT trucks and Fords parts numbering system for the Ts and TTs. According to it (If I read it right) the large plate being a change, and likley coming after 3515 and 3515-B, its new part number is likely 3515-C ????.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By arnie johansen on Thursday, September 11, 2014 - 10:01 am:

Dan:

Now, I do not understand. What do you mean by "one of those was modified and hole got cut away". I thought we were talking about the ledge that supports the top of the floorboard on that part!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dan Treace, North FL on Thursday, September 11, 2014 - 10:07 am:

Donnie

Don't think so, there are no TT-xxx factory numbers for any dash plates.

No expert on TT trucks, but don't think the TT chassis firewall (dash) was the Improved Car cowl, with the open gap to mount the plates and the square flange mounting plate steering column used on the Improved Car.

The TT truck chassis most likely used the older style round mounting flange steering column and firewall with the round hole to support the column direct.

That steering column did however go into the special TT steering bracket on the frame, that is Part #3546B, Factory Number TT-945. The TT frame side rail is much taller than the T frame, so this new part was needed.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dan Treace, North FL on Thursday, September 11, 2014 - 10:13 am:

Arnie

This is what I meant with "one of those was modified and hole got cut away".


Donnie's picture for Part# 3515. The right side mounting hole has been torn or worn away, should be like the left side hole.



Compare Donnie's part to the Parts Book picture (on left) for what the # 3515 is like.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By arnie johansen on Thursday, September 11, 2014 - 10:31 am:

Dan:

Thanks for clearing that up! I thought you were only talking about your parts in that message!

Now it all makes sense.

I think Donnie is doing a great job with this series. I hope a lot of parts difference get noted in Donnie's 26/27 changes!

In fact, until it was pointed out I never even thought that there was a steering bracket support change!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Donnie Brown North Central Arkansas on Thursday, September 11, 2014 - 02:56 pm:

Dan: what I was referring to was the current running thread titled "What is a TT debate, factory numbers" I agree that there is no dash plate for the TTs, They were just a continuation of the earlier firewall design. (but they may have used the 26-27 style steering column with the square bottom flange) I have not addressed that issue yet... " Coming Soon to A Forum near You" :-) :-) I was mostly pointing out the part of the TT thread dealing with parts numbers and revisions. T= model T, TT= Ton Truck, L=Lincoln, FT=Fordson tractor, ect. Then part#-B = a change in part, part#C would be another change, then part#R (R=repair or replacement)would be a part that was changed, but the old part still needed to be manufactured for repair work because the new part that replaced it would not work for the earlier one. It takes a little reading to come to terms with the system (at least for my feble brain) but it is a good system and Ford still uses a very similar system today. You can take almost any Ford part number and instantly tell what years it fits and what car or body style... but that is another story for another time ...:-)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Donnie Brown North Central Arkansas on Thursday, September 11, 2014 - 03:03 pm:

Dan I re-read the 9:35 AM post above. It does seem like I am talking about the TTs. Sorry for the wrong wording. I meant to just point out the numbering system being discussed in the thread . my bad this time :-(


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David Dewey, N. California on Thursday, September 11, 2014 - 03:56 pm:

I agree with Tom, Jack's photo of a part in primer is definitely a Model A steering column plate--only one half of it, there's a second half that surrounds the clutch & brake pedal shafts, that's what those curved 'notches' are for. The part is actually upside down from how it fits in the car. the notch on the flange clears the starter switch button.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By jeff cordes on Thursday, September 11, 2014 - 06:01 pm:

Dan, TTs did use the square flange steering column like the improved cars.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Donnie Brown North Central Arkansas on Thursday, September 11, 2014 - 07:33 pm:

Jeff, Thanks for the info. I thought the TT would use the square flange column in 26 and 27. Since the square flange will replace the round flange with no problems, the round flange should have became obsolete in 26 for repair work . Then if you needed to change the tube or entire steering column on a 25 and earlier car, you would have had to use the square flange type (after all remaining round flanges were used up). The 26-27 TTs would still require the special steering column frame bracket at the bottom. I also believe there is a special Fordor frame bracket for the bottom.


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