Define a TT

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Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2014: Define a TT
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By George John Drobnock on Wednesday, September 10, 2014 - 08:19 am:

There is a question on the forum about the number of 1926 TT Fords remaining. A review of McCalley (p 471) indicates that for 1926 there were a variety of Ford Trucks produced - Open Cab, Express body, Platform body, Pickup Body and on. Were all these vehicles one ton frame/axle trucks? Is a roadster pickup a TT?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Val Soupios on Wednesday, September 10, 2014 - 08:33 am:

I always thought that a TT, regardless of the body style, had the heavy chassis and worm drive among other variations. Without that it is a T with a utility body of some kind.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Jelf, Parkerfield KS on Wednesday, September 10, 2014 - 08:37 am:

Val is correct. TT stands for Ton Truck. No matter what body, it has the heavier frame on the longer wheel base. A pickup is built on a car chassis, so it isn't a TT.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ivan Copping on Wednesday, September 10, 2014 - 08:39 am:

A Model T is a car chassis as we know it but a TT is the factory designation for the one ton, worm drive truck and if you look at the galleries of "Factory Models" you will see an array of full sized (for the day) Truck bodies, even tippers were covered (by outsourced jobbers)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hap Tucker in Sumter SC on Wednesday, September 10, 2014 - 09:11 am:

George,

No, the light duty pickup that Ford introduced during 1925 and continued with the improved body style in 1926-27 by offering a pickup bed to replace (or in place off -- depending on how the owner purchased the pickup bed) was not a Ton Truck which is what the TT stand for.

If you look on page 311 of Bruce's (RIP) book, "Model T Ford" you will see that 33,795 pickup beds were produced in calendar year 1925. You will also see that they were available for purchase as a pickup from the factory / dealer with the price of $281 effective Dec 31, 1925 without starter and without demountable rims or for $366 with the electrical and demountable rims. That is $21 more than the runabout was priced. But Ford did not keep records separate records of which ones were sold as runabouts vs pickup trucks but instead lumped both vehicles together. But on page 369 the for the 1926 calendar year he does list the pickups separately but then for the 1927 calendar year on page 370 they are included in the runabout numbers.

If you look on page 468-469 for the 1925 calendar year, I believe it will make the most sense for you. If you focus on the US Totals for both Model T Ford Production on page 468 and on Model T Ford Truck Production you see that the TT chassis listing for non-starter and starter TT chassis on page 469 is 186,810 non-starter and 62,496 starter. That is the exact same number listed for US non-starter Truck and starter truck on page 468. So did Ton Truck chassis equal a truck? Apparently for the Ford accountants any TT chassis sold counted as one truck. But they kept track of the bodies on page 469 -- i.e. open cab, closed cab, express body, stake body, platform body, and the one that throws folks off -- "pickup body!" Did they put the pickup body on the Ton Truck -- no. It doesn't fit properly. If you wanted a bed with sides on your ton truck you ordered a cab, (closed or open) and an "express bed" which looks similar to the pickup bed but is much longer. And of course you could order just the Ton Truck chassis and have any body built on it you wanted.

I hope that is helpful to you.

Respectfully submitted,

Hap l9l5 cut off


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By George John Drobnock on Wednesday, September 10, 2014 - 09:42 am:

Hap. Thanks. George


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hap Tucker in Sumter SC on Wednesday, September 10, 2014 - 09:42 am:

To finish a thought so if I read this thread again in 5 years from now it will make more sense to me:

The pickup bed was listed under the Truck production numbers on page 469 -- just like the C-Cab, closed cab, express body (long pickup bed), stake body, etc. In addition to keeping track of how many TT chassis they produced they also kept track of how many truck related bodies they produced (ie. this was from the production numbers not the sold numbers. ) They added the light duty car chassis pickup bed under the Truck Production for some reason. I'm not sure why they did it -- but clearly it is listed there.

Also a little more comparison is probably needed. For the 1925 and 1927 calendar year numbers Bruce did not list the pickup truck numbers on page 311 and 370 they were marked included in the runabout numbers. But for the 1926 calendar year he did list them on page 369. I'll let someone else tackle why it was done that way.

Respectfully added,

Hap l9l5 cut off


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Henry Petrino in Modesto, CA on Wednesday, September 10, 2014 - 10:10 am:

I think the reason some folks get a little confused is the fact that a T and a TT have identical engine/trnasmission assemblies. The fire wall, steering column, and radiator are the same too among other things.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hap Tucker in Sumter SC on Wednesday, September 10, 2014 - 11:26 am:

Yes, I agree with Henry Petrino that the many interchangeable parts between the T and TT contributed to that also (they look the same from some angels -- i.e. hood, fenders, radiator, front axle, front wheels etc.). You can call a touring car a Model T and be correct. You can also refer to a Ton Truck as a Model T and be correct. But the touring car, roadster pickup, etc. would not be called a Ton Truck (TT).

And Henry counted the TT in his numbers for the 15,000,000 Model T. I.e. the touring with the 15,000,000 painted on the side had engine number 15,000,000 installed in it. And engine number 15,000,000 was number 15,000,000 because of several engines that had previously gone into the TT. (Note engines in the cars and TTs in Canada and where the chassis engine was exported from Canada, had their own "C" serial number starting from May 1913 [ref: page 540 Bruce McCalley]. And there most likely would have been some overlap when both the Canadian assembled from USA parts engines and transmissions that were stamped with the "C" serial number and the USA assembled engines and transmissions stamped with the USA engine serial number would have both been used in the Canadian production. Currently don't know if it was zeor overlap, measured in days, weeks, or months -- but based on other change overs -- it usually was not completed on a single day.)

Respectfully submitted,

Hap l9l5 cut off


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dan Treace, North FL on Wednesday, September 10, 2014 - 12:28 pm:



Comparison of the TT ton truck and the T passenger car chassis.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mark Strange on Wednesday, September 10, 2014 - 12:46 pm:

Flipped and mirrored the car chassis to better show the difference in wheelbase:

pic


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Henry Petrino in Modesto, CA on Wednesday, September 10, 2014 - 12:57 pm:

Since we're on the subject, I have a question. It has always been my unsubstantiated belief that during the first years of production TT's used the same front spring assembly as regular T's, then later, around '25 or '26, TT's were built with a heavier front spring than cars (maybe just an extra leaf).

Is this true? If not, what is the story?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Marvin Konrad on Wednesday, September 10, 2014 - 02:53 pm:

Just went out to the shop and counted the spring layers of the '26 TT = 8 layers counting the perch layer, while the '25 coupe rolling chassis (which is still 'For Sale') has 7 layers. Hope that helps.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Henry Petrino in Modesto, CA on Wednesday, September 10, 2014 - 03:22 pm:

Thanks for the response Marvin.

I just looked this up in Bruce McCalley's book. There seems to be a contradiction in the information presented on page 453. First, it says all 1909-1915 front springs were 7 tapered leaf. Next it says springs slowly changed to non-taper design in late 1915 or 1916 on some production. It then says, "This was a 6 leaf, non-tapered type until late 1917 when a seventh leaf was added." Then it indicates all front springs were 7 leaf from 1918 through 1925 and that a new 8 leaf was used on all cars for 1926-27.

I don't understand the, "This was a 6 leaf" based on the prior entries. In any event, your observation Marvin seems to be consistent with the 1926-27 8 leaf data. My truck, a 1918, has 7 leafs, which is also consistent with the data, so it sounds like TT's used the same front springs as regular T's. Mr. McCalley made no separate entry for TT front springs.

It just seems like I read somewhere about a 9 leaf front TT spring. Maybe it was an aftermarket or something someone cobbled together with an extra leaf.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hap Tucker in Sumter SC on Thursday, September 11, 2014 - 10:36 am:

A nice posting by Trent Boggess concerning the TT vs T part numbers titled: "What is a TT debate: Factory Numbers" is located at:
http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/411944/478305.html?1410400870

Respectfully linked,

Hap l9l5 cut off


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Derek Kiefer - Mantorville, MN on Thursday, September 11, 2014 - 11:32 am:

Not really relevant to the discussion, but I have to share anyway. :-)

When I first bought my TT, my youngest son AJ being 2 years old at the time was a little confused... I called the car "Model T" and the truck "Model TT truck"

He couldn't keep track of how many times and what all to repeat, so for a long time it was referred to as the "Model TTTTT truck truck truck"

We all got so used to calling it that, the kids still occasionally repeat the "truck truck truck" part of it. Cracks me up every time. :-)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hap Tucker in Sumter SC on Thursday, September 11, 2014 - 12:13 pm:

Derek -- that is great!

All -- First, Ford Motor Company did not really do much on the model year changes but in many cases did running changes where a new part was brought in while an older part was phased out and it may or may not have crossed what we would like to call today a “model year.” A good example of that is the USA production (I don’t know what Canada England/Ireland did) one piece valve cover engine. The one piece valve cover started production on Nov 1, 1921 and the two door valve cover engines continued in production until Apr 3, 1922 when only the one piece valve cover engines were produced . (Ref page 526 Bruce McCalley (RIP)). So there were approximately 5 months of overlap when both styles were being produced at the main Highland Park Plant. In this case it did not go over a model year but 5 months of overlap easily could go over a model year. In other cases such as the 1926 improved fenders --- they wouldn’t work well with the 1925 style frames so both were changed at the same time (along with other 1926 improved items that would not work with the previous model year).

All that to say – I don’t know exactly when the 9 leaf truck front spring and new truck crank case bearing and spring clip were introduced. But I do know they are first listed in the May 1925 Price List of Parts so there is a good chance they were actually used on the late 1925 ton trucks that still had the narrow pedal transmissions etc. And probably the rectangular ignition switch panel. How many days or months of over lap when different branches or even the same branch was using both the old style and the new style front spring and crank case bearing and spring clip I do not know. If anyone has additional information it would be welcomed.

Note for a discussion of the very larger TT front crank case and bearing and spring clip verses the car and 1918-1925ish TT part that looks very similar but is a smaller part, please see http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/179374/208536.html?1304033351

Note the Aug 5, 1928 Model T Price List of Parts only list the heavier spring and clamp used for the 1926-27 model year. Shown below is page 54 from that price list of parts:



Note for a discussion of the larger TT front crank case and bearing and spring clip verses the car and 1918-1925ish TT part that looks very similar but is a smaller part, please see http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/179374/208536.html?1304033351 And an easy way to tell the truck part from the car part for the crank case and bearing and spring clip, is the TT part the threads are the same as the standard car rear axle nut which is larger than the nut for the car style part.

Note the Aug 5, 1928 Model T Price List of Parts only list the heavier spring and clamp used for the 1926-27 model year. Shown below is page 54 from that price list of parts:

Prior to the introduction of the 9 leaf Ton Truck spring they would have used a car spring (my GUESS and it is ONLY A GUESS since I don’t have time to look it up – they probably would have used the same front spring that the sedan used).

Respectfully submitted,

Hap l9l5 cut off


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Fred Miller, Sequim WA on Thursday, September 11, 2014 - 12:41 pm:

About the TT front spring.
The spring was beefed late in 1925 and seemed to coincide with the updated frame that was introduced then. The later front spring for the TT was heavier duty and had 9 leaves and did not share any part numbers with the car models. Incidentally the improved car 26-27 also had a front spring that was different for the pre 1925 model cars. This older car spring was also used on the TT until 1925. The later TT with the 9 leaves also has a unique and larger spring clamp than the cars.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Fred Miller, Sequim WA on Thursday, September 11, 2014 - 02:35 pm:

Boy your quick Hap, anyway I meant to say the front spring change in the cars happened in mid 1925 for the 1926 model year. Sorry


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Henry Petrino in Modesto, CA on Thursday, September 11, 2014 - 03:14 pm:

You guys are amazing!!!


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