Well what to do. I need to have the Indiana Police inspect my 1926 Model T I bought without a title in Wisconsin last week, From the pictures it is either a 1926 or 1927 as the gas tank is in the cowl
From the pictures, as I cleaned the id on the block
I can read these numbers 4 space space 4 space space ???? It appears someone in the past ball peen ? the numbers out.. Any advice ? I can make a vin at a local shop However the ID for 1926 started with 12990077 and ended with 14619254
David, if it's a 26 or7 engine # should be stamped on the frame. Early 26 won't be. KGB
If you have a buffalo nickel with the date worn off there is an acid that you can drop on the spot where the date was. It will reveal what it used to be.
I wonder in that would work on this.
Looking at this number though I think it is a replacement as there is a 4 in the place for the first digit. That would not be the case for a 26-27 engine.
Do you have the wide clutch and brake pedals? If not, it's likely an earlier replacement engine. If it is, check if the transmission cover is fastened directly to the engine block with two horizontal screws - then it's a 26/27 style engine. But check the frame too under the front passenger floorboard as has been suggested.
Should have written "If it has" (wide pedals)
Thank you ALL !!! I will look tomorrow on the frame ??? for a serial number !
David, if the # is on the frame it should be on the passenger side top rail ahead of the seat riser. KGB
Thank you men. I goggled where to find a 1926 frame number and came up with a lot of advice
The photos below show the normal location you will find the engine serial number when it was stamped onto the top of the frame. They have been found on the top of either frame rail, but normally somewhere that you could see when you took out the front floor boards. Note at the thread at: http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/29/8925.html RV Anderson commented that on his car the serial number was on the driver's rail near the rear cross member – which is not the common place to find it. And in that same thread Bruce McCalley commented, “Not all Model Ts had the engine number stamped on the frame rail in the 1926-27 era.” I wish Bruce was still here to clarify that comment – i.e. we know the ones manufactured Aug to early Dec 1925 were not stamped. But were there several Feb 1926 and later cars or trucks that were not stamped on the frame rail? If anyone has additional information on that please let us know.
The photos below I think were from the 2007 forum that was lost. But I suspect they are from Forrest Scott’s restoration of his 1926 touring. If any one know who originally posted them please let me know so I can say thanks in the future.
The photo below was provided by Dennis Hallpin (Thank you Dennis):
Hap l9l5 cut off
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message By Steve Jelf, Parkerfield KS on Friday, June 20, 2014 - 10:40 pm:
If your frame has a number it may be easy to see, like this, or it may be buried under several decades of crud and require some cleaning to make it visible.
As you're new to the affliction, this is for you: http://dauntlessgeezer.com/DG80.html
In addition to publications, it's good to get into a local club. Fortunately you have one in your area: http://mtfca.com/clubpages/chapters.htm#ut
David. First we need to make sure it is a 26 model. Then we can decide if it is a early 26 or late 26, or even a 27 ??. For me to help you decide the year, I need to know, what the step plates in the door opening look like (aluminum, steel, or one piece steel that forms the complete rocker panel) A good photo of the cowl area, where the top of front door meets the cowl, would also help. A photo of the windshield stanchion where the three bolts attach to the cowl is another point to look at. If there is a door panel loose, does the door have four round holes under the panel or oblong holes.?? Since your car has a side light makes me think early 26 (but it may have been added). With a little more info, we can narrow down when your car was built. Then the engine number can be addressed. You can use netal nitrate (I think I spelled it correct and I am using the right term)to raise the numbers. A good welding supply house may have some. They use it to check for welds in steel. There may be some other products they use also. You may not believe me, but you can stamp a number into a 1/4 inch thick piece of steel, weld over it, grind it smooth, and if you polish the back side of that piece of steel, the netal nitrate will raise the numbers so you can read them... That's how law enforcement catches the bad guys. It has been several years since I was around welding inspections, so EPA or some government regulation may not allow a person to have it any more. ????. After we figure out the year of the car for sure, you could also find an old junk engine block that is no good, for the year you need. Then use that number. One more thing, the frame number (same as engine number), is located on top of the frame at the hand brake cross shaft area. It can be on either side. If you have no number on the frame, then the frame may be before Dec. 12. 1925. That is the date they started stamping numbers on the frames. The number on your block, looks more like pitting (corrosion) to me, than an attempt to destroy the number.
Donnie Brown THANK YOU you men are such a wealth of information. I will take photos tomorrow and post them for review
David, As rust pitted as the engine number pad is on your engine, I would just mill or file it clean and stamp my own number.
Just my opinion. Because of the location of the first "4", it MUST be a replacement block of some sort. That should be not a big problem if the frame has a factory number on it. That is the first thing to check.
Later replacement blocks came with numbers on them, none ever started with the number "4", and there is no room for a "1" ahead of the first "4".
It could be an earlier block? Or an engine block originally sold for a non-automotive use. Many such original users had a serial number system of their own. Some of them had spaces, others had combinations of letters (usually, but not always ahead of numbers). These odd blocks often did find their way into the engine exchange builders over the passage of years. Several such blocks have been discussed on this forum over the years. (Don't expect me to find them! I am not good at such searches at all.)
Your block looks a lot like one I had in a TT years ago. The conclusion was that the radiator had a leak which was blown by the fan all over the left side of the block. It was covered in rust pits similar to yours, and had an illegible serial number. It varies from state to state as well as office to office, and has gotten worse in recent years. However, at that time, my TT frame had a serial number on it, and the DMV accepted it. They hinted at not allowing the engine due to the number that could not be traced, but, then allowed it. (I was glad of that. The outside may have been rough, but inside that engine was nice and ran great!)
Good luck! You should be able to work it out one way or another without too much trouble.
Drive carefully, and enjoy, W2
Holy cow that's a tricky number to work out.
I usually try the flash to to high-lite deeper areas, but l don't know if it will work with that number.
What happens when the engine number and frame have different numbers for your title?
4 4 _ 2 4 6 or 4 4 5 2 4 6
Just for grins & giggles, would you consider doing a "rubbing" on the number...you know, like folks do in cemeteries - place a piece of paper over the number and rub pencil lead over the number....maybe the numbers would show better.
(Alternatively, lightly spray some paint over the numbers, and when dry, sand lightly....numbers may become more legible.)
Good Luck !
449246 or 449 ? 246
If it's a 7 digit number like 4,4XX,46X as I suspect, then it's likely a october 1920 engine (1921 model year).
If so, there should be a casting date on the block slightly earlier than the october production day. Does it have two valve covers? That would also indicate the engine was made 1921 or earlier.
I don't see any mention here of whether there is a number just in front of the passenger seat on the top of the frame. That is where they put the vin number in '26 and '27. Have you pulled up the floor board and looked there? Some very early '26 cars did not have that, but you could fake it and just stamp one there yourself. I did that on a car that I had inspected, and they approved it.
I now have a car bought out of state with a title that had an incorrect vin number. (They had left out 2 digits of the engine number.) I did not even mention that to the California DMV, and they approved the transfer of title "as is" without any hesitation.
The objective is to get it approved. Forget having it correct! That opens up a barrel of worms...
Use the frame number if you can find it. That would be the safest number to use. Engines were changed out frequently and the body and chassis not so much. I had the same problem with my '26 coupe and the body and chassis all checked out to be a mid-year '26 model. Good luck, hope it goes well.