1926-27 Improved Models, a study of ... Springs, front and rear.

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Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2014: 1926-27 Improved Models, a study of ... Springs, front and rear.
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Donnie Brown North Central Arkansas on Thursday, September 18, 2014 - 02:17 pm:

This is number 7 in a study of 1926 and 27 Improved models parts differences. The studies have so far, been staying 26-27 item specific very well. All input so far has been appreciated. I have read that there is a difference in springs for the Improved models vs earlier cars and trucks. I have nothing in my parts pile to show the difference, if there is one. Does anyone have any specifications as to the number of leaves and the amount of the "arch" of the front and rear springs. Some photos with the different arches (if there is one) side by side, or on top of each other, would be good to show the difference. I have a very early 26 touring and a late 27 touring but I can not get good measurements from them. This is the first time my parts stash has failed me. :-( .... Just a side note. If you do a keyword search of "titles" with the words "Improved models a study of" as your keyword search, all that is showing up is the 7 different threads that have been discussed so far. I hope we can keep a "monopoly" of those key words. It will make a search by Improved owners very easy to do and all the "studies" be in one place. Thanks again for all the input so far ...


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Donnie Brown North Central Arkansas on Thursday, September 18, 2014 - 02:20 pm:

I meant to say "subject lines" instead of titles for the keyword search ...


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By arnie johansen on Saturday, September 20, 2014 - 05:34 pm:

Donnie:

The only thing I could find was that Ford lowered the crown of the front spring by 1" for the front spring and lowered the crown of the rear spring by 1.5". This was done for the improved car. Do you have reason to believe that there was a change during the model year 26/27 production?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Roger Karlsson, southern Sweden on Saturday, September 20, 2014 - 06:15 pm:

Arnie, I'm not aware of any change of the crown of the rear springs for the improvisation cars, not even the european drop frame models. All the lowering in the rear was by raising the arc of the rear crossmember. The front springs had a lower arc, though. Same # of leafs as before.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Roger Karlsson, southern Sweden on Saturday, September 20, 2014 - 06:16 pm:

Ugh, improved cars.. D### cellphone


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Tom Carnegie on Saturday, September 20, 2014 - 07:38 pm:

I am on the Can-Am tour right now, but when I get home I think I have the specs for the 27 (or 26-7 or whatever) low crown spring. It has eight leaves instead of seven, but sits an inch lower. I have one on my 26 Montana 500 car along with a dipped axle.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Norman T. Kling on Saturday, September 20, 2014 - 10:01 pm:

I think there was a difference between the rear springs for the various body models. For instance the Roadster had a lower profile than the touring or sedans. Anyway in my case, the spring on my touring bottomed out on the Ruckstell, but the Roadster sat very high in the rear. I swapped springs and both set just about right and the touring does not bottom out anymore.
Norm


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Donnie Brown North Central Arkansas on Sunday, September 21, 2014 - 11:53 am:

Hi, Ive been gone for several days, sorry for slow response. As others have stated above, I believe there is a 1 inch lower crown to the front spring, and also 8 leaves. I can not say about the rears. But I do believe I saw a illustration of various rear springs that showed a different looking arch for the 26 -27 models. I have not found it yet. And I can be corrected on that. I believe that all the springs will have the same eye to eye measurement (at rest), no matter what arch there is. Since there is no different measurements of the axle, spring perches, or shackles, the eye to eye measurement should stay the same. Trying to figure out which front springs are early and which are improved is hard to do when they are in a pile. The springs have sagged, they have been mis-matched thru the years, ect. I hoping to find the "stock" eye to eye measurement and the stock "arch measurements to use as a base line when searching out the right parts....


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Donnie Brown North Central Arkansas on Sunday, September 21, 2014 - 02:01 pm:

Arnie: I do not have any reason to believe there was a change during the Improved models of 26-27. I believe that all the spring assemblies, will be the same for the 26-27 models, other than (maybe)the amount of leaves used for various body styles. The 26-27 TTs should still use the earlier style spring as was used in 25 and before. I am hoping for a standard measurement of the eye to eye of the 26-27 springs (main leaf only), to give us a way to find the right springs, and not confuse the earlier springs for "Improved" springs. I feel like the eye to eye measurement of the "Improved" springs, will be shorter than the same measurement of the earlier springs. They will need to be measured along the "curve" on top of the spring, (main leaf only) and center of eye to center of eye, to give an accurate measurement.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Eric Sole - Castelldefels (Spain) on Sunday, September 21, 2014 - 05:48 pm:

Does anyone have the measurements for the curvature of the front spring for a 27 runabout?

I need to know if mine needs to be re-arched.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Donnie Brown North Central Arkansas on Sunday, September 21, 2014 - 08:26 pm:

Eric, That is the question we are trying to answer with this study. Keep checking back, as maybe, we will figure it out.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Roger Karlsson, southern Sweden on Sunday, September 21, 2014 - 11:18 pm:

Here's what Bruce said in the encyclopedia:

http://www.mtfca.com/encyclo/S-T.htm#spring
"1916-1917
FRONT: Springs slowly changed to non-taper design beginning in late 1915 or 1916 on some production. This was a 6-leaf, non-tapered type until late 1917 when a seventh leaf was added. Main leaf not drilled for oilers until 1917 (approximately).

REAR: 8-leaf tapered.


1918-1921
FRONT:7-leaf non-tapered. Main leaf drilled for oilers.

REAR: 8-leaf, non-tapered, with main leaf drilled for oilers.


1922-1923
FRONT: Same as 1921.

REAR: Same as 1921 plus 9-leaf spring added for the Sedans.


1923-1925
FRONT: Same as 1921

REAR: Same as 1922 but 6-leaf spring added for the Runabouts. 1925 Pickups supplied by the factory used the 9-leaf spring.


1926-1927
FRONT: New 8-leaf spring used on all cars.

REAR: 8-leaf spring for all cars except the Sedans that used a 9-leaf, both the same as used in 1925. The 6-leaf was discontinued."


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Donnie Brown North Central Arkansas on Monday, September 22, 2014 - 09:08 pm:

Roger, Thanks for the info. Its helping me sort this out. I went back to the parts pile and I did have both styles of front springs :-) Its hard to judge them just by looking at them so I thought they were all the same. Also some being "sagged" more than others changes the "look" of them. I did a crude but fairly accurate measurement of the eye to eye distance on all 17 of my springs. I used a piece of banding material with a scratch mark on one end, and by placing the scratch at the center of the eye, and then following along the top of the main leaf till I got to the other eye. I then scratched another line on the banding at the center of the second eye. I did this on all 17 springs. I came up with only 2 different measurements. The measurements are 3/4 inch (+ or - 1/16 inch) longer on the early springs than the 26-27 springs. I even had one good taper leaf set. It was the same length as the other longer eye to eye measurements. I took the best looking spring set I had of each style, a 7 leaf early (high arch), and a 8 leaf 26-27 (low arch). The arch was almost exactly, one inch lower on the 26-27 style. The eye to eye of both styles of complete spring sets, measured straight across and not following the arch, was also the same, when side by side . It is fairly common knowledge that the 26-27 front springs were a lower arch. What is not common knowledge is how to measure them or tell them apart. If you have both styles laying together it is easy. What is not very easy is to know the difference when at a swap meet. I know there are probably cars out there with the wrong springs on them. Any suggestions on how to get a good standard measurement of the eye to eye distance or some other point. I hesitate to give my overall measurements. While all my measurements were taken from the same point, some one else may see the center line a little different. I had thought about the oiler hole for the measurement, but not sure it stayed in the same place.?? Any suggestions ....


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Tom Carnegie on Saturday, September 27, 2014 - 11:32 am:

My buddy Bill Mullins has supplied me with some measurements of front springs. They seem to vary from one to another, but there is sort of a pattern. The top set of numbers is the length of the leaf and the bottom is the height of the arch of the leaf.

Leaf
EarlyLateLate
133 3333
232 3131 5/8
327 3/1626 5/827 1/8
422 5/822 22 5/16
517 7/818 18 5/8
613 7/1614 9/1614 13/16
79 11 7/1611 9/16
88 7/88 13/16
EarlyLateLate
14 11/163 5/163 5/16
23 7/82 2 11/16
33 1/82 2
42 7/161 1 7/8
51 5/81 1 7/16
61 1/81 1/161 1/8
713/16
89/169/16


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Eric Sole - Castelldefels (Spain) on Saturday, September 27, 2014 - 06:35 pm:

Tom, that's great information. Tomorrow I will take a look at my leaves to see how they "measure up".

Thanks to you and Bill Mullins.


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