I know the lead car is a Buick. Are there any Fords in the group?
I think they are all Cadillac's.charley
You and Charley are right. The Buick is a two cylinder Model F, 1908 - 1910. The Cadillacs are one cylinder.
It's a great picture.
I don't believe the one behind the Buick is a Cadillac. I'd have guessed Ford Model C. The two behind that are a Cadillac Model K and a Cadillac Model M, both 1906 or 1907.
On second thought, the second car could be a Model C Ford.
A quick search turned up this photo:
Here is another:
It would appear that there was some overlapping of body styles as the second picture shows a rear entrance type body compared to the photo of the red car which has doors similar to the model F side entrance.
I'm referring to the lower picture in the old ad. It is marked model AC. It is hard to see.
In the early days, both Ford and Cadillac bought their bodies from the Wilson Body Company. My understanding of the Ford Model AC was that it used the body of the original Model A on the Model C chassis - getting the 10 HP engine.
The drawing in the add is likely an artist's conception of how the car would look and used the rear tonneau from the Model A because they had that sketch available. Does anyone know of a Model C supplied with a rear entrance tonneau instead of the side doors? Does anyone have a sketch of the Model A in an advertisement we can compare to see if they cobbled an old sketch to make this one?
During the transition between A and C this casting was used as the location of the crank hole was changed to accommodate the longer hood area. It may have been the AC model that used this. Others could tell more specific information.
I believe Model C were first rear entrance, changing to the more modern side entrance. Ford Board of Directors discussed the change over several meetings in 1904.
yes I now think the frt car is a ford ,but the other two I still think are Cadillac, to many things are not the same, rad, frt hubs, dash, fenders, frt axle & springs. charley p.s. password is back to never working!!!!!!!
Below is a photo John Grace shared with me back in 2005ish or so that clearly shows the Model C with the rear entrance tonneau.
That and at least two other Model C rear entrance Tonneau photos are shown on the Early Ford Registry site at: http://www.earlyfordregistry.com/jfgrace/jfgrace.html And there are several side entrance photos also.
Note Carl Pate documents that Ford Motor Company USA initially offered the Model C with a rear entrance Tonneau, in 1904. But Ford USA changed to a side entrance body after agreeing to the new style at a Board of Directors meeting that was held in Dec 1904. Ref:
Carl also comments on that same photo above sharing that it shows the extra wide crank hole cover was introduced on bodies that had the rear entrance. Some of the Model C’s had that extra wide crank hole cover while others did not. Ref chapter 7 page 24 of 34. And if anyone has any documentation on when the double hole cover came out and why – please let Carl/us know. The body was shifted aft and/or the engine was shifted forward and a second hole was drilled so the crank would fit properly.
And this is another example where Ford USA followed the lead of Ford Canada. The first Fords assembled in Canada were the Model C. And they started off with the side entrance Model C with step plates rather than the USA version that used a rear entrance. Ford of Canada transitioned to running boards during the Model C production. But Ford of Canada produced the side entrance Model C before Ford USA produced them. [Ref “Pate’s Early Ford Automobile Encyclopedia” chapter 4 page 27 of 63.] Below is a photo from http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/29/31867.html?1183222782 that shows a Canadian side entrance Model C in New Zealand. Note we believe the step plates were never used on the USA rear side entrance bodies and were only used on the earlier Canadian Model C Fords. As always we would welcome additional information.
Recommended book for Pre-Ts: “Pate’s Early Ford Automobile Encyclopedia” available from the vendors, our club store at: http://modeltstore.myshopify.com/products/pates-early-ford-automotive-encyclopedia-1903-1909 or from the author at: http://www.earlyfordcars.info/ .
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The C and F chain drive cars were available with several gear ratios, requiring different axle and engine sprockets. Some of these would cause the chain to hit parts under the car, such as running board truss rods, engine mounting frame, etc. I have seen examples of both C's and. F's with that modified crank hole casting. I've seen two versions of the casting, also. I have one on my F. Also, the engine mounting frame changed over time on the F, causing the crank location to change a slight bit. I can only imagine the "oh sh## " moment when a Wilson body was married to a chassis and the hole being off a couple of inches. What a glorious fix, whatever the reason for the screw up. My very early F has one and a late. F has one, so I don't think it is a matter of early or late.
Tim – While we may never know for sure why or when something occurred or how much overlap there may have been when it was done more than one way – if we keep gathering information we eventually be able to figure it out or run across the piece of data that unlocks the mystery. Carl’s book was published in 2008 and that chapter was written a little earlier than that. When he wrote the chapter, he had seen illustrations of the Model F with the double hole crank cover, but had not seen any early photos of a Model F that had the double hole crank cover (ref: page 24 of Chapter 7 ). Carl is gathering information to update his Encyclopedia and he may already have the information about the two hole crank cover on your early Model F and the later Model F you mentioned. I know he would like to have that sort of input. You can post it here, send it to me and I’ll forward it [you can click on my name and it brings up my profile and my e-mail address is the third line down], or send it direct to Carl. I’ll be glad when Carl’s books are sold out as he has been discussing providing an updated digital version once that occurs. Sort of like we want the stadium to be sold out so the game will be broadcast in the local area.
Charley -- everyone is in agreement so far that the last two cars are Cadillacs.
Tom -- Ford often did have illustrations touched up to be used again (or even without any touching up and just change the description under the photo or illustration). But in this case I looked through pages 1 through 24 of chapter 3 "Advertisements" in Carl's book. Out of the numerous advertisements all but 4 or so of the Model A style advertisements were a direct “side on” illustration. The 3 or 4 that were not direct “side on” -- were at a different angle from the one of the Model C rear entrance illustration shown above. So it would not have been an easy task to just change a few things to update the illustration from the “A” style to the “C” style for the illustrations I saw.
From memory -- gosh I wish it was better, I thought there was an unrestored Canadian 2 cylinder Ford -- brownish color that had the two crank hole crank cover. I don’t remember if it was a C or F. But I haven't run across that photo in my rummaging today so I'll stop here.
As always additional photos – especially early photos – and other documentation are always appreciated.
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Hap, You can email me at firstname.lastname@example.org for some Further info. Thanks
E-mail is sent ... thank you!
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