What About Those Accessory Belly Pans .? . . .

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Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2014: What About Those Accessory Belly Pans .? . . .
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By george house on Friday, September 26, 2014 - 07:21 pm:

. . . I've recently decided to gather some up and install on my Model T s. Original 90-100 year old braze and rivets makes me leery for a break down on a tour. But theres no surviving installation instructions, are there? On all these sets I've accumulated, 9/16" 18TPI seems pretty standard on both ends with 2 nuts on each end. My questions are two-fold: Is the engine first jacked up a few inches while fastened to the frame rails before installing the belly pan? and would a nut be installed on either side of the two detachable "frame hangers" or are they both on the outboard side with one used as a lock nut? Thanks in advance


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By James J Williams on Friday, September 26, 2014 - 07:54 pm:

George I also just bought one used no instructions of course
It has a nut on each side of the ears well rusted on
Looks original probably holds the ears from shifting back and
Fourth . Someone may have instructions.

Jim williams


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Terry Woods, Richmond, Texas on Friday, September 26, 2014 - 08:15 pm:

George. I may be misinformed, but I was told (or read somewhere) that the accessory belly straps were sold to catch the engine just in case a mounting 'ear' broke on the pan around the flywheel. If this is correct, the strap should be tightened just to the point of being close enough to support the pan in case an ear breaks. They should not be tightened to the point of contacting the pan under the flywheel, if I'm not misinformed.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mark Strange on Friday, September 26, 2014 - 08:33 pm:

I installed one on my car a few weeks ago, I did not disturb the engine or mounts at all. I snugged up the new belly strap just enough to make it snug so that it could immediately take the load of the engine if one of the main mounts cracked.

There should be a nut on each side of each hanger bracket (four nuts in all). The hanger brackets have to be installed from above after you remove the floorboards, they cannot be slipped into place from below. Good luck with your installation!

strap01

strap02

strap03


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jay - In Northern California on Friday, September 26, 2014 - 09:59 pm:

I installed the same accessory hanger the same way Mark did. It's meant to be a safety net not an additional set of pan arms.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mike Walker, NW AR on Friday, September 26, 2014 - 10:16 pm:

George -- You worry too much. :-)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Wayne Sheldon, Grass Valley, CA on Friday, September 26, 2014 - 11:17 pm:

If you set these up too tight, they are more likely to cause a problem than to prevent one.
Drive carefully, and enjoy, W2


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Willie K Cordes on Saturday, September 27, 2014 - 09:37 am:

George, If you use those "Pan supports", stay away from church picnics as I here that the Pope does not approve of them. (hear say)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By george house on Saturday, September 27, 2014 - 10:00 am:

Thanks for all the good advice guys. Yeah, Terry, thats exactly what I've been concerned about - a broke off pan mounting 'ear'; although I've never seen this occur. Good informative pictures Mark. Thats exactly like most of my belly pans. About the only difference my installation undertook was the inclusion of lock washers between the outboard nuts and the hangers and I cut a 4" X 6" thick rubber piece out of a wore out inner pickup tailgate cover and inserted it above the belly pan with a hole cut to enable oil changes. (I sure hope my high school Grammer teacher doesn't read that last sentence) So, ya'll don't think the engine and the frame should be lifted up very slightly to take some of the weight off the old braze and rivets, huh? . . I hope to see ya'll at the Texas T Party next week !!!!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By george house on Saturday, September 27, 2014 - 10:13 am:

Wayne, I'm curious, how might a belly pan be more likely cause a problem than prevent one if set up too tight? Lets say, hypothetically speaking, that the engine and frame was raised by a bottle jack on the drain plug after the belly pan was installed but before the belly pan was snugged up. Then the crankcase was dropped to the thick rubber pad on top of the belly pan. . . . this, hypothetically speaking, on all 7 Model T s.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jay - In Northern California on Saturday, September 27, 2014 - 11:17 am:

George, I believe the pan arm height shouldn't be lifted by the belly strap since it can change the geometry of the drive train. I further believe the engine was designed to "float" a bit on the pan arms and not be rigidly held to the frame by an additional set of arms IMHO.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Richard Gould on Saturday, September 27, 2014 - 01:28 pm:

Put a gasket under the support to keep the pan from getting scraped and allow some movement.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mark Strange on Saturday, September 27, 2014 - 05:27 pm:

It might be hard to see in the pic, but I have a piece of closed-cell foam (cut to the shape of the strap) sandwiched between my belly strap and the engine pan for just that purpose.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Wayne Sheldon, Grass Valley, CA on Saturday, September 27, 2014 - 06:41 pm:

Pan arms usually don't just break suddenly. And they most often break right along the surface where the hogshead bolts down. Sometimes they will break along the top edge of the frame rail. It should become a habit every time you crawl under the car to give the arms a quick glance. Hopefully, if one begins to crack, you will notice it in time to avoid breaking on a tour.

If you over-tighten one of these, you WILL lift the pan higher than the arm is designed for the pan to hang on. That will bend the pan hanger/arm. That added with normal driving stresses could result in breaking the pan arm (probably at the top).
A machine screw is a very powerful machine. We are used to torquing so many things to 15 to 20 foot-pounds. Model T heads get 45 to 50 Foot pounds. Some modern engines can be 90 foot-pounds or more. Those things are clamping hard metal directly to hard metal. These pan supports are suspension cradles, their screw tightness carries around angles, through flexible metal objects. Even two foot-pounds may bend or break something.
In all my exposure to this hobby, I have known, heard, or read about maybe ten (no more than 15) pans in restored cars that became cracked and required serious repair. I can only recall reading once of a T on a major club tour where the arm fully broke. Pan arms breaking also are usually a symptom of something being bent.
I do think they are an interesting accessory. They were sold as preventative medicine. Just don't over-tighten. I don't think anyone is likely to actually prevent a problem using one of these. And I would agree to a piece of rubber or felt between the pan and the brace/support being a good idea.
Drive carefully, and drive, W2


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Peter Kable on Saturday, September 27, 2014 - 07:45 pm:

George the brazing strong, if there is one part that will not break it is were its is brazed, the reason the parts were done that way originally.

In the body shop classes we ran one of the tests students did was to weld two pieces of sheet steel together and also two pieces brazed together and then they were placed in a hydraulic ram which tried to pull the weld and brazed sections apart. The welds break the brazed one tear the sheet metal , the brazed joins are not affected, brazing is extremely strong.

On todays roads if the pan is in good condition the chances of it then breaking is virtually nil

(Message edited by P_Kable on September 27, 2014)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Harold Schwendeman - Sumner,WA on Saturday, September 27, 2014 - 07:45 pm:

Terry Woods - I believe you're right, and I believe that they were used mostly on TT trucks.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By george house on Sunday, September 28, 2014 - 09:07 am:

OK . ..agree . . . Thanks again to all for the explanations. Looks like I have a lot of hypothetical work ahead involving a bottle jack.


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