Anyone out there who has used an "A" engine & trans in a "T" frame, what are the pitfalls, if any. also is there a lot of xtra weight compared to "T" units?, also any tips on mating the " A " trans to the "T " tail shaft, looks like it could be done, any ideas & suggestions appreciated, thnx.
What would you do with brakes? The engine might be longer in the A. The length of the shaft might be different, but the T has brakes inside the transmission and the A has brakes on 4 wheels. The T front axle would need to beefed up to handle brakes. You can put brakes on the rear wheels of a T. It would be easier just to buy a complete A and leave it as is, in my opinion.
Norm
Brakes are your pitfall. It would be better to put a Model T body on a Model A frame and have 4 wheel brakes. If you really want to put the A engine and transmission in a T frame, then use Model A front and rear axles and brakes. I have seen this done with a Ford 60Hp V8 in a 26 roadster,
Russ,...you mentioned "mating the "A" trans to the "T" tailshaft,.....that sounds like a lot of total "reduction", so are you talking about building a tractor? That would make brakes les of a concern I guess,......harold
And what would be the point of this? You would neither have a Model T or a Model A.
Oh, wait a minute, you said "tailshaft", which made me think of the output side of the "T" transmission, but maybe you meant "driveshaft". Sorry,.....harold
If you do this the resulting abortion will be scorned by both Model T and Model A owners. It sounds like a really bad idea that will devalue all the parts involved.
Better to have either a nice Model T or a nice Model A than neither.
I also just don't see the point of it. Nothing fits. Nothing really works out well. You end up with a lot of time, effort, and money into something you may have a lot of trouble selling when you have to. Yes it has been done by several people. I have seen photos of about a half-dozen of them, some did look very nice. I have also heard the horror stories of what people went through to build a couple of them.
Advice I often give. Figure out what it is that you want. And what is it that you want from it. And whether or not those two things are compatible in one car or not. I love Horseless Carriages! Most people should not have one, because they are everything that make a model T what it is, both the good and the difficult, only more so.
Model A Fords are also great cars! (I don't want one because they are just too modern for my liking) Model As have good clubs, nice people, and fantastic tours. They are faster (at least by most people's standards), stop better (provided you keep the mechanical brakes properly adjusted), and good looking (even I actually do like them).
A model T, in average condition, may be a little cheaper to buy? But I see good deals on model As often enough. I never recommend someone should expect to recover most of the money they invest in a hobby car, of any type. However, either a model A or a model T will cost you less and probably sell for more if it is kept close to how they were done originally, than will something that is done up to be neither. Collector cars fall into certain groups, or types. Most collectors also fall into those same groups. Something that doesn't fit into a proper category usually is difficult to sell. However, IF that is what you want? IF that will give you what you want in return and take you to the places that you want it to take you? Then build it! Enjoy it ! Be proud of it! Just don't expect the rest of the world to bend over backward to welcome you where it really does not fit.
Drive carefully, and do enjoy it! W2
Only Russ needs to be happy about this. So
If you want to do it, have at it.
My brother did it. Worked out pretty good. It uses a T hogshead and pedals.
Actually he didn't use the A trans. So I guess he didn't do what you asked. Sorry, should have read more carefully.
I like both of Ted's post!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!Bud.
Just buy a model A
very common in 30's vintage circle track cars. light T frame and a B motor, in-n-out box, and a A rearend
I have a former friend who acquired a running A chassis and a 26-27 touring body for virtually the cost to go and get them, (both were at least a 200 mile one way trip), He is trying to mate them, I haven't checked on his progress, primarily because I thought the idea was an abomenation.
I have a 26 touring that my dad put an A engine on t.he T pan. He used the T transmission and slingers on the T flywheel which pumps oil to the vital parts of the A engine. There are a lot of A cranks in T engines so mating the crank to the T transmission was no problem. The A engine gives 40 horsepower compared to the T 20 horse power. Great touring car. The car was on many national tours when he and my mother were still alive. Has Rocky Mountain brakes on rear. Wish it had brakes on front because you can definitely go faster than what it can stop. He helped build another one for a man in Keokuk, Iowa and a fellow from Springfield, Mo., came and took a lot of pictures. Don't know if he got his built.
He used the T starter but put in an 8 volt battery and mounted 6 volt sealed beams in the head lights.
This just sold on ebay. Advertised as a old racer with an A motor and trans.
That speedster looks like it has A axles. I wonder if it is a T body on an A frame?
Norm
On one of the first tours I went on after moving from sea level to the Denver area the guy in the T behind me wanted to look under my hood and see if I had a Model A engine in my Model T. I was flabbergasted. I was driving my heavy 26 Coupe with 4 to 1 rear end gears in it. He stated that I just walked off and left him! (The truth is that I kept him in my rear view mirror MOST of the time and waited for him at every turn we made.) I hate to say it but you get what you pay for. My 26 Coupe may have 4 to 1 gears in the rear end (I do live in Denver and we have some slight hills here) but it but it also is outfitted with a KC Warford, Stipe 280 cam, and a Z head. I also set the drive train up on knife edges per the instructions from the Tulsa club with help from my Arkansas mentor. The result was a car that that performs quite well!
(Message edited by paulmikeska on October 11, 2014)
I cobbled a Model T transmission into my '71 Pinto. It ran like a crippled sloth. Unfortunately, it burst into flames and burned to the ground when rearended by a '03 CDO on a hill :o(
Here are more photos and details on the 27 T roadster racer with an A engine:
http://bangshift.com/bangshiftapex/1927-ford-model-t-racer-amazingly-preserved-p iece-racing-history-barn-find-perfection-wears-past-pride/
Here is the exact situation brought up by myself and others concerning a recent post about the cheby club allowing modifieds into the club and it's something you should consider before doing all that work Russ. Mainly "it ain't a T no mo". It's yours to do with as you wish but resale is going to be a (fill in the blank). You'll have neither a T nor an A.
Well i looked and if it sold for the 15,000 what did that say for resale? Bud.
Wondering as Norm is if it's a T above and an A below the sheet metal. A "T Bucket" is called a T only because of the reproduced plastic somewhat resembles a T body. It's not a T. Neither is this supposed "racer". I'd like to know the sale price myself but whatever it is the ad's hype contributed to it's sale. If it actually sold that is. I don't believe, although beautifully constructed, that Clayton Paddison's car is a T either. It's in the same class as a T Bucket. A kit car if you will. While there may be a few how many of you would consider buying say a '23 Touring with an A driveline in it and what would you pay?
I would love to have Clayton's car! Why drag him into this? Question has been asked, answers have been given. End it there!
The front crossmember looks more beefy than a T.
Norm
paddisons car aint no t bucket! its model t from one end to the other. its what a kid would have built for a hopped up car in about 1930. well done at that.
>>> By george house on Saturday, October 11, 2014 - 11:33 am:
I cobbled a Model T transmission into my '71 Pinto. It ran like a crippled sloth. Unfortunately, it burst into flames and burned to the ground when rearended by a '03 CDO on a hill :o(
I just laughed out loud........the wife is wondering what the hell I'm doing.......
I like doing engine swaps, but they need to be carefully engineered. As has been said, you need to decide what to do about brakes. Also consider the fact that the A engine produces twice the horsepower that the T rearend was designed to handle. The swap is doable, but will be a big job to do properly and safely.
I think George H is joking! I, too, laughed heartily.
I must admit that I have not followed the link about the T/A racer above. But it does to me bring out another point that must be considered.
Many race cars were built during the '30s and even into the '40s utilizing parts of several different cars and eras. It is not uncommon for these to be of both model T and model A components. These cars became cars of their own right at a time that now makes them historic vehicles by any reasonable definition of the term.
Personally, I have little interest in race cars of that era. Personally, my interest is in the '10s and early '20s. However, I still recognize good examples of such cars as part of our automotive history. And many other people also recognize them as such. Many of them are personally interested in that era. Some of these race cars have become quite valuable. In their own right.
Drive carefully, and enjoy, W2
Don't give the impression I'm denegrating Clayton's car because I'm not. But how does it not fit into the description Resto-mod which is why I mentioned it in the first place and is what Russ's car will be if he modifies it. How many of you howl that coils are the heart and soul of a T? Or the planetary? If their gone is it still a T?
The real problem has not been mentioned here.
The Model A engine has twice the horsepower of a Model T engine.
The positive action clutch and extra gear made that extra horsepower a problem for a light frame.
The Model A frame was made a lot heavier for a reason.
That racer probably just has a T body on a Model A frame.
Just remember a 'bucket T' hot rod that started getting popular around 20-30 years ago is only a 'T' because it has a T Roadster body on it.
In the 60's when I started getting interested in hot rods and custom cars and being in my mid teens I understood that a T frame is just to light for more powerful engines and beefed up transmissions.
I figured that out over 40 years ago.
Charlie B,
I usually don't jump in on spirited discussions like this out of principle.....but this one has me baffled a bit. I am not put out or upset...as everyone is entitled to his or her opinions...but I must ask...
What about my car makes it NOT a T and more akin to a fiberglass kit car?
My car is, as several have said, all T end to end. It Runs:
- an original '27 steel body
- an original '27 frame
- an original late-'26 engine (with a 13 million sn#)
- a late '27 "EE" series crank and '26 rods
- original '26-'27 planetary trans
- a fairly rare and uncommon Chicago Mark-E overdrive
- a stock large drum axle that will soon be replaced with an original Hall-Scott Ruckstell.
Fenders, buzz-coils and wood spoke wheels are not the heart of a T...it is Ford's marvelous little engine/trans combo. Once that is removed....it is no longer truly a T.
I have driven and seen a few T/A hibrids...and even though they aren't truly a T to me....they are still cool and fun. I don't think I would opt to do so in my T just be cause....Ts have a charm that really needs to be experienced.
resto-mod is a term that applies to a vintage car that has been upgraded with modern drivetrain components....like a '53 Chevy fitted with a new LS-1 engine...yet left with it's factory appearance.
A T-Bucket is a wild, heavily altered street rod that is built of mainly a fiberglass body built in the image of a T....
I don't see how my car fits into either of those discriptions at all.
The T frame is plenty strong to handle a stock A engine..stock B engine...hot B engine....or even a V8-60 for that matter. The T frame is far stronger than most give credit and that often becomes lost.
I have a friend that runs a hot B engine with a record OHV conversion that is stupid powerful and fast. It runs a T frame and is more then solid.
The real issue here....is who cares. There is nothing wrong with a T/A hibrid. These cars are what we make them. speedsters, gow-jobs or T/A hibrids, it doesn't matter as long as we have fun doing it.
Clayton,
If you or anyone else wants to ruin a Model T by installing some other kind of engine it doesn't offend me one bit. It's your junk and your money. Just go to a different forum to discuss it, because it is not welcome here.
Installing non Model T engines harms the Model T hobby, and it is an insult to anyone who cares about Model T's. Installing non Model T engines in Model T's is against the goals of the Model T Ford Club of America.
Royce you couldn't have said that any better.
I have to agree.
A model A engine does NOT have twice the power of a model T engine.
How in hell can that be? An extra 1/4 inch of stroke will double the HP? I doubt it.
A T engine with an A crank brings the T engine up to the same displacement as an A. does it double the HP?
The model T was 20 HP...BRAKE HORSEPOWER
the model A was 40 RATED HP. There is a difference
The model A was about 24.3 BRAKE horsepower, according to what I have read. Or was it 24.5?
Put an A crank in a T, install a better cam and higher compression head and you can leave a stock A in your dust.
The T HP figures were at around 900 RPMs, the A HP figures came from a much higher RPM.
Royce,
I hear what you are saying and I agree, but nobody is "ruining" anything.....the hobby or Ts in general.
I am in no way condoning that all Ts should be converted to A drive trains or that such a conversion is okay and good for hobby...exactly the contrary. The idea here is the preserve them, not depute them. I am all for that.
I am a T guy...always have been, always will be...that is why I own a T and not an A. I prefer my Ts with T engines....as that is the heart and soul of a T.
There are some applications however that a T/A hibrid works, especially in a racing or dirt track scenario....that is a all I am saying.
....not saying an '09 2-lever would be better off with an A engine.
I am mean no ill-feelings and certainly don'T want to start a fight or get anyone wound up when they really don't need to be.
Aaron
The A has more displacement, a better cam grind, bigger ports and valves, a larger carb and a better combustion chamber design. So it could easily have more than double the HP of the T. And most A's probably have more exact timing than most T's because of the distributor. Certainly it is possible to get similar spark timing with a T, it is just more difficult.
Clayton
I trust you understand that Royce is the final arbitrator of all things T. Odd though that his car his painted a non original colour!!
Russ,
I read only a few of the replies made to your question so you may have an answer to your question prior to my input. I am older than several of this forums members (into cars) and having been into T's and in clubs since 1960 I have seen and done more than most with T's. Not bragging just fact! Most of the fellas who TAUGHT me are and have been dead for many years now. But, if you will check out the BAT in old magazines and forums maybe you'll find the answer to your quarry. I saw a few B, A, T's when I was a young teenager. They ran like a bat out of Denver! I do not KNOW much about them but they were real and it couldn't have been really hard as they were made in the 40's. Mainly the two I remember were 26-7 cars. These cars wore full fenders and appeared to look like the model they were built so maybe they were easier to do. ???????? One was a sedan and the other was a touring car. Owners told me that there were others too. All I know is that they were REAL!
Joe in Mo.
Les,
I do and of course value his opinions and mean no of fence at all. I certainly care about the principles of the T club and what they stand for.
I just hate to see these discussions potentially turn angry and out of control...and I get the feeling that is where this was going. Don't want to step on any toes here. I have yet to have a bad experience here and like everyone I have meet here..including Royce.
The only thing I was curious on is A) How I got dragged into this thread in the first place? and B) why my car was equated to a T-Bucket and Kit-car?..
What color is Royce's T? Lol!
i always say, if you start with a pile of parts, do what ever you wish. just dont tear apart an original, complete car to build your dream machine
Clayton
I totally agree with your perspective on the "pile of parts" and re tearing a original apart!!
he has a metallic green one!! Yes it has family history and I certainly think that is totally fair. I've just found that it is important to have a little bit of tolerance.
If I put a HEI distributor in my '55 Chevy, should I get kicked out of the 55 Chevy club? Good Grief!
Clayton's (very neat) roadster is basically all T with a few modifications. I think some people are taking this waaaay too seriously.
I liked the picture of the car P Kelly posted just not 15,000 worth! For 4 to 5,000 it looked liked it would be a lot of fun!Bud.
Chuck,
If you install a Model A Ford engine in the Chevy they would kick you out of the Tri-Five club.
Royce,
I tried that but couldn't find an adapter to the Chevy transmission and I had to have synchro or nothing. Anyway, Tri-Five guys are even pickier than T guys.
chuck, if you paint it pink like royce's touring, i'd vote to kick you out
Reading this thread reminded me, I wonder whatever happened with the guy who was looking for an antique car with a modern drivetrain for his 90 year old mother. Folks tried to steer him towards a Shay Model A replica, I wonder if he ever bought one.....
Clayton, I'll say first (again) your car is beautifully designed, engineered and crafted. I'm not bashing the car at all but lets be frank: you have a T block that's hopped up beyond any T. You have a planetary which was probably the easiest connection device to an overdrive since you used a T block. Your steering and suspension mods have beefed up the frame. It's beautiful work but it's a resto-mod. A T is 20 HP, a planetary trans, coils, (OK I'll let distributors of the period in because their so common) dicey steering and almost no brakes. That's a Model T.
I'm looking to build a BAT like pictured below...
Mom and Melissa my wife would drive my speedster, but both are intimidated by the planetary transmission and my Warford gear box. I have a 1915 t body that came on a pallet and the cowl was missing so I welded a 1926 roadster cowl. Both have expressed interest in model a Speedster because of the conventional transmission and the uniqueness of the T on an A little Hot Rod. I would never consider cutting up an original T. The girls car is being built along the lines of Clayton's build. I like the traditional hot rod sand Clayton roadster epitomizes the era of the gow job. So go build what ya want!
Charlie,
I understand that you are not bashing my car and I really don't take any offense here....but I must completely disagree.
My car is NOT a resto-mod. A resto-mod is a vintage car fitted with modern a drivetrain and amenities. For example: a low milage, stock '53 Chevy Wagon fitted with a 2014 Chevy LS-1 crate engine, coil over suspension, modern rack and pinion steering and A/C.
My car is anything but such a thing. Sure, I have added a few things and changed some things....but they are done in the spirit of the era in which the car was built..and everything is period correct.
I kept the T engine....because that is what makes a T. I hopped it up...cause I wanted to go fast. Guys just like me have been doing that to Ts since day one.
I wanted the planetary trans....because that is what makes a T and like driving it.
The T frame is pretty much unaltered...save for the brackets I added to mount the stouter wishbones for better stability....not in common during the period. I also drive the T ALOT...so I stiffened it up.
I added the Chicago Overdrive because it is a period accessory and I wanted hill climbing and road gears.
I added Rocky-Mountain brakes....cause I wanted to stop and not kill myself.
I changed the steering because I want to be able to control it at 60 mph safely.
Sure....its not a bone stock, "as Henry built it" T....but it is still no less of a T.
Buzz coils, a weak steering column and no brakes do not a T make and there is no rule book that says my car isn't a T because it doesn't have those things..
If I had an Iron Duke or a Pinto engine and VW steering in a home made chassis....I would agree, but with an All T drivetrain....I can't
If you want to call it a "Hop Up" or a "Gow Job"..that would be more correct. "Resto-Mod" is the wrong term.
Either way....it is still a T.
It's a highly modified Model T
Yes....but still a T. Nobody is saying its not modified.
Clayton I'm not trying to start an argument but can you list what items on your car are not modified. Thanks
Yes,
Front axle, rear axle, crank, rods, transmission, hogshead, front spring, front spindles, rear spring, pan, radiator, wire wheels, starter, hubs and radiator shell.
Does it matter that I have aluminum pistons? A Z- head? stainless valves? Lowered suspension? Does that make it any less of a T?
No.
What T hasn't been modified to some degree? What T hasn't been broken and coble-repaired at some point in its life? Does this sort of thing null and void every speedster or T with a z-head or overdrive or Ruckstell or R-M brakes or distributor?
I'm not really trying to start an argument either.
Chris
I have had a similar experience in regards to my wife and my daughter when it comes to driving a T. They struggle with the planetary, but can get by it. Now throw in a Ruckstell and all bets are off. And I have observed this with other drivers. And lets all face it, T brakes are marginal at best!!
So I have taken a pile of parts and made a bunch more and am in process of building a speedster with a modern transmission in it. The toss up right now is whether it will be automatic or 4 speed. I have both sitting there and both will fit the same adapter. If I go automatic the shift lever will be where a Ruckstell lever would be. I'll put all three pedals on the floor, but only the brake will do anything.
If I go 4 speed I'll leave in a "reverse" pedal that does nothing (maybe connect a exhaust whistle to it).
Obviously I have the brake thing settled as it will have my front wheel brakes (in this case hydraulic) and a Ross steering box. It is '13 style so it has a '13 rear axle!!
To really be a "sleeper" it has 30-3 1/2 non demountable wooden wheels.
Also it is getting one of the Bailey locking differentials I have made!!
I sold my roadster mainly because I was scared to drive it on oun narrow, hilly roads that are filled with idiots who are unable to stay on their side of the road. If you can't drive it, why own it? I am tempted, however, to build another one with A running gear just so I can post pictures here and get all the purists riled up.
That made me laugh Chuck
The point that Les and Chris make is exactly the application I think is perfect for a T/A Hibrid.
In regards to my car...I don't why I was getting so spun up about all this. Modified or not...its still a T. I enjoy it, my wife enjoys it and my kids enjoy it.....and that is all that matters to me.
I still love talking to you all and being part of the community.
Clayton, I enjoy it too and I'm on the other side of the country. How about some current pics. Post them on this tread!
What is the problem with taking a pile of parts that could be destined to scrapper. Build them into a running operational vehicle. Yes there are tasteless and ugly ones out there. But I am not going to pass my t/a hybrid off as t or a it's a speedster, gow job, or hot rod. I just like the technology of 1900 through the mid 1930's. Those guys did a lot with very little if you ask me. Back to original post it would be easier to put a "put together body" like my 15/26 roadster( that no right minded purist would mind you) on an A chassis. I think you would have a nice little hot rod. Just don't pass it off as T.
I build what I like I simply don't care.
What is the problem with taking a pile of parts that could be destined to scrapper. Build them into a running operational vehicle. Yes there are tasteless and ugly ones out there. But I am not going to pass my t/a hybrid off as t or a it's a speedster, gow job, or hot rod. I just like the technology of 1900 through the mid 1930's. Those guys did a lot with very little if you ask me. Back to original post it would be easier to put a "put together body" like my 15/26 roadster( that no right minded purist would mind you) on an A chassis. I think you would have a nice little hot rod. Just don't pass it off as T.
I build what I like I simply don't care.
Clayton,
Since you and I not only frequent this forum, but also the HAMB, I think we see things a lot alike....
Here ya go John....from my fresh Race Of Gentlemen Road trip to Wildwood, NJ...
Me going up against a '31 A coupe with ROOF Cyclone OHV...
A really nice little '15 roadster that was built as a CA hill climb car... Prescott i think..
Chuck, Yes...you and I are on the same page.
To Aaron Griffey, I don't mean any disrespect, but the A engine does produce 40 hp which is twice what the T engine produces. Horsepower is not a function strictly of cubic inch displacement. The T engine has a displacement of 177 cubic inches and produces 20 hp. that's .11 hp per cubic inch. A 1949 Plymouth has a valve-in-block engine with 218 cubic inches and produces 97 hp or .44 hp per cubic inch. Compression ratio, maximum rpm, efficiency of intake/exhaust passages, camshaft profile, spark advance curve, reciprocating weight, and many factors also play into horsepower output.
Clayton that looks very 1930's, A+ ! It looks like there was some professional media coverage, where/when did it air? I would bet many of the "Purists" would love to see it.
John,
Only been home a few days....pictures are just starting to come out. I haven't heard anything yet...but I now Velocity Channel was there..
Clayton,
That is a great machine you built - fantastic!! And I agree with you completely: purpose-built and period-correct make it a T. I get this ALL the time about my T conversion tractors and T doodlebugs - "Oh, it's not a REAL T." BS. Next time, post to the "Show Us Your T Doodlebug" thread - we're much more inclusive over there. ;)
Still a T:
Here's one clip but alas, it's not Clayton's T.
http://bangshift.com/bangshift1320/ride-cool-hot-rod-laps-beach-2014-oilers-car- club-race-gentlemen/
Clayton, you have one awesome car!
Here ya go Chuck..
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=MmO_jZXT_QY&feature=em-upload_owner
I won't claim to speak for the whole hobby like some others here do, but I will say that posts regarding Clayton's car are always "welcome here" to me!
Clayton Paddison's roadster was the vehicle that inspired me to get into Model Ts - not the countless over restored lollipop Ts that dominate every VCC meet I have been to over the past 40 years. I would argue his T is more period correct than most and has inspired many hot rodders to consider a more traditional build saving the 4 banger, chassis and original bodywork instead of the usual amateur butchering that saw many Ts modified beyond return.
Lets talk about the mods to Ed Archers speedster while we are at it.
I love Ed's racer. He gave me a ride in Lincoln, and I wanted to own a fast Ford from then on.....
See you guys (well some of you) in Lincoln next summer....
In regards to the original question, Has it been done? Yes someone is even rumoured to have fitted am model A engine to a T oil pan and retained the planetary gears. Is there pitfalls? Yes, It's not really worthwhile.
As for the discussion that happened afterward.. A model T is a model T, a model T speedster is a model T but modified for speed and a 2014 corvette is a 2014 corvette, it's just that easy.
Too easy, that's the problem. Everything is overthunk these days.
Yes kep. It is more than rumored. If in Troy, Missoui, I will give you a ride in one. Great touring car with the extra horsepower. I don't open the hood if I am at a car meet knowing a mod like that is frowned upon.
Here is a picture of Ed's #4.
I want to know more about Ed's Front Axle on Ol' #4
....want to make one similar for a Speedster Chris and I built.
Clayton
Here is the 'how-to' on the Tulsa club site
http://mtfctulsa.com/Tech/axle_bending.htm
Clayton,
Check out this thread on the HAMB and notice the first picture. Food for thought.
Drug Home: 1917 Dodge Brothers Touring
Nice find Chuck!
Thanks for the How-to Dan....gonna put that to use!
Chris Becker stated:
"I build what I like I simply don't care."
We shouldn't care either. When Ford builds cars they build them the way they want to. When an automotive car enthusiast builds a car, he is certainly entitled to build it the way he wants it. Others certainly don't have to like it, but its not their problem.
Well said Ted.