Hey guys new to the forum and had a question on outside oiler set ups My touring car has the type coming off the mag post but I have an old Ford faultless set up in storage I could use. Any thoughts on these?? Is one better than the other? Thanks in advance.
Just about any is better than none..
thanks Jack.....is this just too boring a topic or is there some protocol I am missing that I am limited to only one response when posting on a website of hobbyist that deal specifically on this type car????
OK guys if this were YOUR car which oiler would you use the mag post type or the Ford faultless?
Not to be offensive,I have at least two different types. I confess I've yet to run the engine with the through the side of tranny cover one.All my other engines are using the Mag/oiler type. no problems yet.
The protocol you're missing is that this is a forum, not a chat room.
If you're patient, you may get a few more responses.
And welcome to the forum.
thanks Jack and Dan really new to this ..so Jack you have been ok with the mag type.I had heard somewhere that there was a problem with the first generation ones.....is that true? Maybe with mag pickup? Also are they a newer design or a period piece like the faultless?
As far as I know ,or remember,all but one of mine are old originals.
When i had my 14 rebuilt because of a broken crankshaft i had a TH or big scoop oiler put on my hogs head.Bud.
John, i just installed a mag post oiler a few months ago with no problems also, so if you have the other system available to you, why don't you first measure the amount of oil you are now getting to the front of the engine with the mag oiler and install and compare it to the amount of oil with the faultless. The more the better i would think.
so sounds like both are perhaps equally popular....I did notice that the faultless had a bigger feeder line so I thought maybe higher volume
This one for the out side.
When rebuilding engines I use the external one from Texas T, shown above by Kronke. However my old faithful Coupe, which was rebuilt in the 1990s, uses a Faithful on the right hand side.
On the subject of speed of response, at least give us a few hours, this is a Model T site, we like to small the roses...
I run both the Ford Faithful and the mag post. Probably overkill but I've never had an oiling problem.
I have had one of the small tube oilers using the mag pickup hole and I have had one of the super oilers. Both worked.
Draw backs to me: The super oiler you have to cut a hole into the hogs head. Boy if you screwed that hole up or could not get it to seal, you got an oily mess.
I was never convinced that the mag hole type would caught enough oil being that the thrown oil had to make a 90 degree turn to enter the tube.
It is of my opinion, that as old as these cars are and still running? The orginal Henry oil system must have worked just fine. The reason I used the external oilers was because I was making speedsters and I removed the magneto. Thus is would cut down on the splash of oil to the front of the engine.
I say, don't worry about it. Your car made it this long without one.
Several of my cars have the mag oiler with a sight glass installed in the line. I was glad to see that quite a bit of oil goes down the line. Count me as a fan of any additional oil supply to the front of the engine.
The cooling and lubrication demands of an engine that only puts out 20 HP are modest. -On the other hand, if what I've read here on the forum is correct, the front engine bearing tends to get starved for oil when the car is heading uphill (with the engine screaming in low gear)—the mixed blessing being that the volumetric efficiency of the engine causes it to more or less self-govern at a meager 1600 RPM—that and we Flivverites learn quickly to avoid long, steep hills.
Today's hi-tech oils leave a more durable film behind than did the mineral oil of the day, so I suppose it's less likely that forwardmost bearing will run completely dry.
Okay, the above is what the know-nothing newbie thinks he knows. -Here's something of which he's not so sure: Back in the days when I played with antique airplanes, we used an oil-additive called "AvBlend." -This is an extremely high-quality, non-synthetic, petroleum product that was originally developed for auto-racing under the name, "Linkite." -Besides preventing rust in aircraft engines (which tend not to run as often as automobile engines), AvBlend is somehow absorbed by metal which tends to “weep” the stuff back out when long-dormant engines run during the critical time between start-up and the establishment of full oil-pressure. -In the airplane world, that’s considered a big deal. -In fact, there’s a market in place for add-on machinery that pre-oils an aviation engine before start-up.
Now, stick with me just a little longer: The point I’m making is that Avblend (which is FAA-certified to do as its advertising claims) lubricates high-performance, airplane engine parts under conditions which would otherwise cause them to run dry. -That property would be very good for the front bearing of a Model T Ford engine which is needful of supplemental lubrication to the point where after-market, outside and inside oiling gadgets have been marketed to owners for some time. -
But there remain a couple of niggling questions in my mind: Is there a down-side? -AvBlend, as formulated today, is intended for use with ashless-dispersant aircraft oils, not automotive detergent (or non-detergent) oils and I’m unaware of how they differ or whether such difference would matter to us. -The other thing is our hinky, flywheel magneto. -The darned, oil-bathed thing is unique to Model T engines and I already know we need to avoid, like the plague, any kind of oil that contains graphite or any other metallic constituent. -Might, for instance, some solvent in AvBlend dissolve the varnish (or lacquer or whatever) coating of the magneto’s coils? -I have no idea. -I’d sure like to know, though. -Maybe this bears investigating?
The FAA does not certify that Avblend does what its advertising claims.
Some years ago I did some looking at my mag post oiler. I tried a few types and never got more than a few drops of oil. I measured this by disconnecting the line from the front of the engine and running it into a bottle. At about 1500 rpm I could just about fill a pint bottle in about an hour (extrapolation, even I wouldn't stand there that long!). I suppose if you put a scoop where the mag post is you might get a better return. Remember the mag post hole is over the mag... not the flywheel or magnets!
The stock internal oiler does better than a mag post oiler.
I ended up designing a nice oil scoop which went on the RIGHT side of the transmission cover. I use a 1/2" copper pipe crossing over the hogshead and going to the left front of the pan. I get well over a gallon of oil a minute at about 7 psi.
There are reasons for the location and routing of the line. I found that this set-up maximizes flow. I also couple this with placement of appropriatley designed dams on the pan dips and dippers on the rods. With a large size oil funnel in the block it all works as a system.
Placement on the right side using a scoop looks a lot like what you see in the above photo. The difference is that the pictured pick-up is a copy of my design... I believe it has no internal scoop and is placed in the wrong side. What is shown there will work just fine, delivering more than enough oil. If you placed it on the other side you could get enough pressure to run an oil filter if you want (I used to do that!)!
Since you have some nice hills up around Ohai you can use the best oiler you can provide. Folks in Detroit or Florida don't need anything more than the stock funnel.
If your going uphill the oil does not flow to the front of the engine, just remember the old plumbers saying "***t doesn't run uphill and Friday is payday".
There are two Ford Faithfull oilers.
One is the original stamped steel trans cover type made in the T days and the other was made in the sixties and later in Auburn, Ca. is cast aluminum.
Both are better than the mag post oiler.
Either one will get enough oil to the front to provide enough lubrication so you can get by if the original inside oiler plugs up, or gets broken, or the rebuilder forgets to install it.
The mag post oiler, especially with the electrical pick-up still inside, will not get much oil down the oiler pipe. With it removed you will get some oil. I tried it, but it was 22 years ago. I think I got about a half quart a minute.
I can see the lack of oil in the oil galleys as you go up hill, but I can't believe that there is enough oil pressure coming through the tube to feed oil uphill. Plus, what oil that would feed through the tube going up hill would still not fill the galleys being that the oil is running out of the galleys going up hill.
If you want to fix the empty oil galley issue, you need to make and weld in up hill dams to hold the oil in the galleys. Otherwise what oil you get through the outside tubes is simply going to flow right past the galleys and back to the oil sump.
Here is what I have done...seems to work. Lined up with ring gear. I have mag post varieties too, but I have heard that they are inffective...don't know.
wow plenty to digest, thanks for all the feedback and info. I have the two in hand, mag type and faultless , so I will be using one , or as Gary said BOTH. Thanks a ton!
John ; an other option is, off the bendix cover to the inspection plate.
Terry, I found the same thing, Mag. oilers are sending a boy to do a mans job, and there is one of the Original type that is the best of all. In my openion the repro's don't put out 1/2 the oil as the Originals did. They just don't have the area for the oil to get into around the Mag. Point.
The one I showed was made by Townsen Auto in Ill. about 35 years ago. I still have a few left, as I bought up many when he went out of business.
He only made the adapters, I got the Brass fittings and a 1/2 inch oil line.
If you take off the line at the bottom at idle, you can dump a quart in about 15 to 20 seconds, or less with the 1/2 inch line. It really puts out at slow speed, and going up hill because of the lower angle of the oil line.
Personal experience with mag oiler. I have a T on which the magneto quit working shortly after I installed the engine. I ran it on battery for 10 years with a magneto oiler. Later I was restoring another T and rewound two mag coils. I decided to replace the coil on the T which I had been driving on battery and when I pulled it down I found the funnel from the inside oiler laying in the bottom of the crankcase. The mag coils had been cut when the oiler came off. I had been driving with the remainder of the inside oiler without the funnel, and the mag oiler for 10 years! All I did to the engine was take a few shims out of the bearings and replace the oiler and mag coil. Still running. I have another 15 years on that engine. It has been on many one week tours and I live in the mountains. Anyway, a magneto oiler is easy to install and no modifications to the block, crankcase or hogshead are necessary to install it.
Maybe if you have a speedster it might need more oil, but for a regular T, the magneto oiler works fine. I have them on all 3 of my Model T's.
Personal I use the magneto post oiler but two years I rebuild an engine with on both sides of the oil pan a strange construction for the oil transport to the front of the engine.
I have been using the mag post oiler in 2 x 13's and l'm not sure l am getting much oil down to the front through them.
The side of trans cover version works very well and pumps a lot of oil with a good head height.
well Bob you are right I am a "no nothing newbie" that's why I posted the question. I do appreciate your comments on current oils as opposed to the oils back in the day....food for thought. Oh and by the way not offended by your no nothing comment actually brought a chuckle. Thanks again to all
You misunderstand. -I refer to myself as the know-nothing newbie and I am. -I'd never call you or anybody else an uncomplimentary name. -My sincerest apologies for not making that clearer.
Bob , I suppose we could argue who knows less , me or you HAHA oh and no apology needed
I have an aluminum Ford Faithful (made in Auburn) and all the connections... pipe and return for the bottom of the pan. I am not using them as I am down to just one T and it has the full Horlick Mountain Oiler system on it.
If someone needs the oiler, make me a good offer. (I forgot, it was carefully fit to my RHD car so it has been carefully ground to fit and will work RHD or LHD.)
With an outside hogshead oiler, my style or the commercially available one, and a pipe to the front of the engine you don't have to try and get the oil to go uphill. The run will be downhill an angles steep enough that the fuel has to run uphill in the supply pipe (ignore this for 26-27). The engine will stall from the slope before the oil stops flowing!
My thoughts are this.
I like the Texas T Parts outside oil line, have one similar on my current car and plan on using one on a new engine I am having built.
But, what I cannot comprehend is, why would anyone use a copper line from the hogshead to the side of the pan? In my view that line should be steel just line gas lines. A failure of this line at either end could result in a catastrophe if not recognized early.
Ron the Coilman
Where does the mag oiler attach at the front of the motor? I can't figure it out.
I understand Ron's concern over copper failing but I don't think on those oil lines its a problem like it is the fuel connection at the carb. The reason I say this is on the oil line, the entire line is the same (as far as vibrations it sees). On the carb, one end is independent from the other and a crack may occur. Each instance of this I've ever heard tell of involved a ferrel and compression fitting. A hydraulic hose would work well here also.
When I came up with the Bendix Cover oiler, I installed one longer bolt with spacer and an adel clamp. Even if I had used a hose or steel line I would have clamped it mid way.
If i remember right i think Reid Welch said the hogshead scoop type even made enough pressure/flow so you could use a oil filter?? Bud.
Ron,If you have that much vibration between engine and tranny,you got a builder problem.
I think outside oil line are just fine.
BUT- I have been driving my '13 for 10 years and many thousands of trouble free miles without one.
I am not sure where people get off assuming that Henry didn't know what he was doing when he built 16,000,000 T's without them.
And I totally agree with Ron's comment about potential fatigue cracking of copper (especially if you use a compression type fitting). A flare fitting is much more fatigue resistant and with a steel line is better yet
It has to do with the suspended mass of the copper tubing.
Ron the Coilman
I opened up the puny outlet hole on one of the new mag/oilers, and was pleasantly surprised with the amount of oil i got through the tube.
I did a road test with a '23 fordor I had just finished working on and the copper oil line from the FordFaithfull oiler broke off at the front of the oil pan. It quickly pumped out all of the oil
Now I always use a couple of inches of transmission cooler hose at each end of steel line when I install an outside oiler or do major work on a T engine.
I have know of several copper lines snapping of at one end or the other.
The gas lines on the T were not copper, they were brass coated steel.
I put a Texas T oiler on my fresh rebuild. The bottom bolt on the hogshead leaked on one side, in spite of the gasket, and silicone sealer I used. remember this is not under pressure, it is just what the Texas T paddles I installed just throw, If it passes as much oil as it leaked from the small opening around the bolt, the thing has to be working. To me it does not matter if it is necessary or not, it is cheap insurance and peace of mind.
It was very easy to install with the engine apart. I drill small holes around the perimeter of the pattern, then enlarged them to the pattern with a Dremel tool. The cast iron hogshead, being thicker took longer than the pan, but it was no big deal
MY T does a great job of oiling the outside. It adds oil to the air via the exhaust pipe and oil to the ground thru numerous leaks.
It is my way to return oil to the earth for future generations
Ron, How in the world did you get Les to start smoking your socks with you?
Just trying to make another problem where there isn't any!
Ron, The day that the 1/2 inch pipe gets a crack in it, will be long after Les go down on his shameless, in his words, Babbitt price, of 120.00.
Doug, I have never had one leak, and that is well over 100 engines when I got them from Townsen.
I always put clear ATV in the hole and around the bolt before I tighten the bolts, and I use Allen screws only of 12-24 size.
You have to drill the parts out to match, but they are way stronger then the number 10's.
I also use a 1/8th inch gasket as thin ones leak.
The last thing is if you get a leaky bolt, on anything, take it out and make, or buy, a little lead washer that fits tight around the bolt and the lead will seal it.
John Deere used them on head bolts.
Les beat me to it, millions of Model T's built and Ford never saw the need to add an oil line.
All the oil lines in the world are useless if there is no oil.
The only failures I have seen in that time have been in cars which have run out of oil.
From memory there was one such incident last week on a tour reported here.
I have 2 T's neither has an outside oil line, where I live the terrain is similar to San Francisco long steep hills everywhere. In 50 years driving T's never a problem with oil loss at the front.
Keep the oil level up and the rev's down when in low and you can go up steep hill miles long with no problems.
Herm, I used the larger Allen screws, as the inside plate would not hold the bolts it came with, the taped threads were terrible. Only two would draw kind of tight, and in the other 4 holes, the threads would not catch the bolts supplied. I drilled them all out for larger bolts, and used nylon locking nuts. I spread silicone on each bolt as it went in, apparently, I must have shorted one. We did get it sealed up. My point was if it flows as much as it could leak, it is working as advertised.
I've seen a engine that had oil in it and failed. The person had used copius quantities of RTV upon assembly and some of the "grapes" on the inside had broken loose and plugged the Ford inside oil line AND the accessory oil line they had installed.
I see that Herm uses ATV. I have owned and ridden ATVs, but never had one small enough to fit in a bolt hole of a model T, That is the great thing about this forum, I can always learn something. And sometimes get a good chuckle too!!!
With the t parts outside oil line kit you can shoot oil 20 feet in front of the car, I would say there is some pressure there.
I got a little mixed up there Les, maybe I could use the ATV to go get the RTV.
Doug, I don't use any kind of inside plate. I thread the hogs head with No nuts or plate in side.
When I tighten the bolts down, I mark the bolts and cut them off even with the under side of the hogs, and when I get back with the ATV, after getting the RTV, I let every thing set up for a day and pull off any excess RTV.
The front plate I use nuts and lock washers.
When I think of the Ford inside oil line I am reminded of my rain gutters. All it takes is one pine needle to bridge the span of the downspout and that is the start of a plug. I look at the internal T oil line the same way, once something gets across the Ford funnel everything else will stick to it and plug the line.
Why would anyone not think the same lint that collects at the mag post isn't collecting at the Ford oil line?
One of the main functions of oil is to cool. As a bearing heats (beyond its normal temp) the Babbit gives up compressive strength quickly. Pretty soon you have loose bearings that may be too far gone to save.
Order an oil line, get on your ATV and go pick up some RTV and install. Your bearings will one day thank you.
And I don't doubt that Herm is careful to not let there be any RTV "grapes" on the inside. My purpose was to impress upon people to be VERY careful about these type of things. What Gary says about pine needles and lint are totally accurate, BUT a second oil line can just as easily get plugged, so be careful. DON"T change your oil under a pine tree!!!
How many on here are using either a modified transmission inspection cover or bendix cover? If so, how effective are they?
I use the bendix cover because the day I decided I needed an oil line I was too lazy to pull the hogshead to install the one like Herm pictures. One of these days when the hogshead does come off I will install the fitting on it and plumb it to the lower cover.
I have no experience with the transmission cover but they also deliver a lot of oil. When I came up with the bendix oiler years ago I found it will move about 1/2 gallon per minute through it. I would guess the transmission cover oiler will at least match that and probably more. Either would be a good choice if you have nothing now.