Engine locking up

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Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2014: Engine locking up
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By dennis delano on Monday, October 13, 2014 - 12:51 am:

Hello all, I had a problem a few weeks ago with my starter ring gear getting chewed up and was planning on replacing it this winter, until then I was going to use the crank, but have found it difficult to start sometimes and am going over some of the stuff that would make it start easier but have been using the starter by rocking the car a little to get to a good spot with teeth so the starter will engage but have been having problems where the car will be "locked" or "stuck" when I try to push it a couple of inches until I hear a "clunk" and then she'll move freely. At first I thought maybe the hand brake shoes were sticking to the drums, or one of the linings were hanging up, but now I realize that it might be much worse because when I went to pull the hand crank up a quarter turn to get ring gear to some good teeth so that the starter would engage, she locked up solid and I could not budge the hand crank, almost as if the engine was frozen! I then released the handbrake and rocked the car back and forth until I heard the "clunk" and she was free. I then started the car with the starter but she seemed to be running a little rough almost like a "spitting" now and then not quite a backfire. I pulled the car into the garage and she seemed to move ok but I was wondering if anyone had an idea what could possibly be locking the engine up like that? as soon as I can I will pull the inspection cover and see if i can find anything amiss!
Den


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jack Daron - Brownsburg IN on Monday, October 13, 2014 - 12:55 am:

Check for a bad ring gear,locking up your Bendix.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mark Gregush Portland Oregon on Monday, October 13, 2014 - 12:58 am:

Bent starter shaft. Time to pull the BENDIX then the STARTER and find out. Will also give you a chance to look at the teeth on the ring gear. Untill then just use the hand crank. Could be the back firing is because the timing is off or coils are firing intermittently or fuel mixture/supple.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Kenny Edmondson, Indianapolis on Monday, October 13, 2014 - 06:30 am:

Broken mag screws?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dennis Seth - Ohio on Monday, October 13, 2014 - 07:54 am:

The more you run it or try to start it the more you will damage internal engine parts. Stop and repair it now before you cause a major issue.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Roger Karlsson, southern Sweden on Monday, October 13, 2014 - 08:51 am:

Just to clarify - it's likely the bendix gear that tends to stick to the flywheel ring gear since the starter shaft is bent. Starter shafts tends to bend if someone tries to start with the timing advanced and the engine backfires. If you want to delay repairs until winter - then you must stop using the starter until then.

The car should be easy to start with the hand crank - if it isn't you have some other trouble that needs to be fixed.

Check so the ignition comes slightly after top dead center when the ignition is fully retarded. It's easy to check with a wired spark plug out laying on the head. Crank slowly with ignition on battery. The crank pin where the crank grabs the crank shaft is horisontal when the piston is at the top dead center. The spark plug should start to ignite just after with the ignition lever all up if the ignition is properly set.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Les Schubert on Monday, October 13, 2014 - 10:09 am:

Dennis
To remove the starter you must remove the bendix (starter drive) first. So you need to remove the little tin cup on the back side first and then remove the one bolt that holds the starter drive to the shaft. BE CAREFUL to not loose the little woodruff key that is also there. You don't want to drop that inside the engine.
The starter will NOT come past the magneto ring with the drive attached and if you try it will do NASTY things to the coil windings.
Perhaps you already know all this and if so that is great.
Regretably you may find that the problem might just be a chewed up ring gear and then the repairs become more work. The problem is the starter always engages in really only two spots and they eventually get chewed up. I hope yours isn't too bad.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Les Schubert on Monday, October 13, 2014 - 10:10 am:

Dennis
Sorry, I see you already know about your ring gear. I need to read better before I write sometimes!!!!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By A. Gustaf Bryngelson on Monday, October 13, 2014 - 10:31 am:

It looks like most people just read the head line with out bothering to read the post. I suspect that there may be some bit of the ring gear in the crank case, or as Kenny says, a broken mag screw. Running this car with out checking for debris in the crank case will probably do much more damage.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Roger Karlsson, southern Sweden on Monday, October 13, 2014 - 10:53 am:

I read the whole post and thought the stuck engine symptom was from the bendix getting stuck in the ring gear after a failed try to start with the electric starter. If that's not the case and something else is loose in the engine, sometimes getting stuck, then it's obviously time for immediate teardown and necessary repairs.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By dennis delano on Tuesday, October 14, 2014 - 03:06 am:

Hi all, I had posted some pics of my chewed up ring gear a few weeks ago and was planning on replacing it this winter along with re converting back to 6volts because I had replaced a couple of broken bendix springs in the last few years and thought that maybe the 12 volts was causing it to slam into the ring gear and chewing up the teeth but I didn't want to restart the 12v vs's 6v debate, but now I am thinking that something other than the bendix is causing the engine to lock up and maybe whatever it is caused the bendix to not be able to spin the engine while the engine was jammed and thereby causing the bendix to chew up the teeth because the ring gear would not turn! Yesterday when I couldn't get her to start , I tried to pull up on the handcrank a quarter turn to move the gear a bit in order to use the starter, the engine turned but then froze solid, I could not get her to budge with the hand crank, but when I rocked the car back and forth a little by pushing it, I heard the familiar clunk, and then the car engine turned, I then could turn the engine over. I will pull the inspection panel off as soon as I can to see if I can find out what is locking it up, I wonder if one of the magnets could have come loose and sometimes wedge itself somehow?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Roger Karlsson, southern Sweden on Tuesday, October 14, 2014 - 03:15 am:

If it locks while trying to start with the starter, then loosens with a clunk when rocking in gear and stay loose, then it's the starter/bendix sticking in contact with the ring gear that is the problem. The starter axle where the bendix sits is likely bent & the tooth on the ring gear are chewed up in the two areas where the engine always stops - only one gear tooth has to be chewed up enough for the bendix gear to slip over partially, then it's stuck solid.

Just don't use the starter. Starters are evil useless handicap equipment. Just say no!

:-) ;)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jerry VanOoteghem on Tuesday, October 14, 2014 - 01:34 pm:

Dennis,

Having a look inside is the only answer here. It sounds very much like you've got something more complicated than a jamming bendix. No amount of talk or advice will fix it, just gotta get your hands dirty.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By dennis delano on Friday, October 17, 2014 - 07:36 pm:

Hello again, Sorry that I have not updated this soon er, but have been having trouble with these chinese laptops that my wife and I use,(mine is only 5 months old and it quit, can't get acer customer service to do anything evn with the warranty!) I have not had the chance yet to pull the inspection and bendix covers off to see what's going on, but hopefully will get to it this weekend!!! Couldn't be a worse time to not be able to drive around in the t with the fall colors and all, we have had a lousy summer so I didn't get to drive her much! I will update this as soon as i get to it! Thank's for the help and suggestions!
Den


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By dennis delano on Monday, October 27, 2014 - 01:13 am:

hello all, Well I finally got the chance to pull the inspection cover and couldn't find anything out of place but when I pulled the bendix cover back off I saw that the bendix was pushed all the way forward and locked into the ring gear somehow! When I rocked the car back and forth a little, I heard that familiar "clunk" which turned out to be the bendix letting go of the ring gear and then everything was freed up again, so it appears that this was what caused the engine to be "locking up" I think I can safely drive her as long as I don't use the starter. does the bendix gear move without the starter being activated? is there a chance that it could move up into the ring gear while driving? thank's
den


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Jelf, Parkerfield KS on Monday, October 27, 2014 - 01:16 am:

I think that unless the spring is broken you should be OK.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mark Chaffin on Monday, October 27, 2014 - 02:26 am:

Toss the 12 V battery. Replace the ring gear and install a new bendix assembly. Don't ask me why I know. :-)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mark Chaffin on Monday, October 27, 2014 - 02:30 am:

If the end collar on the bendix gear is loose, the small tension pin and spring may be missing which will allow the bendix gear to move forward when going down a grade.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ken Todd on Monday, October 27, 2014 - 11:41 am:

If you're not going to be using the starter until you get a chance to "fix things", why not just remove the bendix? Then you don't have to worry about it shifting and jamming up.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By dennis delano on Monday, October 27, 2014 - 07:08 pm:

Thank's, I think I will remove the starter until I can get to the ring gear and just put covers on it for the time being. This WAS a new bendix I put in a few months ago, that is one of the reasons that I didn't think it was causing the "locking up" problem!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By James Baker on Monday, October 27, 2014 - 07:15 pm:

Are the new bendix's known for having problems?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By dennis delano on Monday, October 27, 2014 - 07:44 pm:

Not sure, but I think the problem might have been caused by a combination of things that were mentioned in this thread, one of them being that the starter shaft may be bent and the other being that the ring gear was chewed up in 2 spots and the bendix was binding in it. What I am not sure of is what caused it to wreck the ring gear suddenly, because the last time I had it apart there was no damage at all except for a broken spring (which I have had to replace twice over the last few years)
I uploaded a video of what was happening with the bendix locking up the engine while I was rocking the car back and forth onto you tube at the following link if anyone is interested.
http://youtu.be/OMCaZ5aDMGA


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By dennis delano on Monday, October 27, 2014 - 07:46 pm:

If you watch the video with the volume on, you'll hear when it gets locked up and then free again!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Jelf, Parkerfield KS on Monday, October 27, 2014 - 09:15 pm:

Dennis, you probably know this, but if you're going to run without the starter on, be sure you replace it with a block-off plate. I'd just do as Ken suggests. Remove the Bendix and leave the starter in place.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dave Huson, Berthoud, Co. on Tuesday, October 28, 2014 - 01:16 am:

Steve Jeff:

You can't leave the started in place and install a block off. The armature would be in the way. You must remove the starter and install TWO block off plates.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Harold Schwendeman - Sumner,WA on Tuesday, October 28, 2014 - 01:39 am:

Dave Husom - It must be frustrating for Steve JELF to have a last name with only four letters and yet people spell it wrong! :>)

P.S. In a weird mood tonight Dave,....just pulln' yer' chain!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By James Baker on Tuesday, October 28, 2014 - 06:58 am:

Does anyone know if the new bendix's are known for having issues? Thanks James


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hal Davis-SE Georgia on Tuesday, October 28, 2014 - 07:34 am:

Why can't you remove the bendix then re-install the bendix cover? I see nothing wrong with Steve and Ken's suggestion.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By dennis delano on Tuesday, October 28, 2014 - 01:04 pm:

Yes I can just remove the bendix and put the cover back on for awhile, or remove the starter and put two cover plates on, I am trying to decide whether I want to wrestle with those bendix cover screws to put the cap back on or remove the starter and maybe go over it to make sure nothing is bent or out of place, in the video, i can see that it looks like the shaft moved a bit when it locked up! decisions decisions!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Jelf, Parkerfield KS on Tuesday, October 28, 2014 - 01:18 pm:

I've always wanted to meet Jeff. He must look a lot like me, because people have been getting us mixed up for years. :-)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By HARRY A DAW on Tuesday, October 28, 2014 - 02:01 pm:

Dennis, the difficult screw on the bendix cover, the one closest to the hogs head, can be started with the cover off. The cover should have a slot in it allowing it to go slide in under the screw. Makes it easy to put the cover on since the other three screws are very accessible.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Val Soupios on Tuesday, October 28, 2014 - 05:52 pm:

Starters! Who needs the damn things? Take it out, put a plate in it's place and start the damn thing with a crank like it was meant to be!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ken Todd on Wednesday, October 29, 2014 - 11:20 am:

Dennis, don't forget to remove the bendix BEFORE you remove the starter.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Aaron Griffey, Hayward Ca. on Wednesday, October 29, 2014 - 12:04 pm:

On the other hand it must be frustrating for Dave Huson to have a last name with only five letters and have Harold spell it wrong.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Aaron Griffey, Hayward Ca. on Wednesday, October 29, 2014 - 12:09 pm:

A good question has been asked and so far no answer.
Are the new bendixes know for having trouble?
I hesitate to try one for that reason.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Harold Schwendeman - Sumner,WA on Wednesday, October 29, 2014 - 02:47 pm:

Aaron - That's why I said,...."just pulln' yer' chain!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Harold Schwendeman - Sumner,WA on Wednesday, October 29, 2014 - 02:59 pm:

Aaron - More on the actual subject of this thread ( instead of my silliness which I didn't mean to be offensive),....I had the same thought and would have brought it up except that I had no luck finding what I was looking for with "keywords":

I vaguely recall a couple or three years ago or so, some forum discussion that pertained to a batch of bendix pinions that were not made quite right and tended to "stick" or something. I didn't comment on it because I just couldn't remember the details well enough to do so. But I'm thinking that that's what Dave Baker was alluding to when he asked if the new bendix's "are known for having issues".


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By dennis delano on Wednesday, October 29, 2014 - 07:53 pm:

Aaron, I don't think it was the bendix's, although I have replaced 3 (i think) of them, once because the counterweight broke loose from the gear, and at least twice for broken springs,(could be a 12 volt issue with that, but I don't want to get into THAT discussion again!LOL)I took a good look at this one before I put the cover back on and the little pin and screw are intact so I am assuming that there shouldn't be a problem with the bendix sliding forward if I don't use the starter. I think whoever said that it was most likely the bendix gear jamming into the already chewed up teeth of the ring gear and binding was correct, at least thats what it appears to me with my limited knowledge! I am not sure what caused the initial damage to the ring gear though, because the last time I replaced the bendix I specifically checked for any damage and everything looked good! Thank's
Den


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