No fire. What am I missing?

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Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2014: No fire. What am I missing?
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Jelf, Parkerfield KS on Sunday, October 19, 2014 - 04:45 pm:

This is starting the get really aggravating. The '15 roadster which I have run a few times to torque the head bolts has now decided it doesn't want to run. I've tried the usual stuff I do to get a car running, and it's a no-go. Here's what I did so far:

Laid spark plugs out on the head, ignition on and turned the crank. Good spark, 1, 2, 4, 3.

With #1 at TDC turned the timer to first buzz then backed off a hair. Adjusted the rod to fit.

Took off the NH and blew out the needle seat and float valve. After still no go, took the carb off again, removed the little set screws, and blew out all the passages. Still no go. Spray needle is out 1
1/4 turns.

Plenty of gas pours out when the bowl valve is opened, there appears to be good spark on all four plugs, and still no start. Not even a cough.
Obviously I'm missing something. Any ideas?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By George_Cherry Hill NJ on Sunday, October 19, 2014 - 05:03 pm:

Did you have the intake off?

Tried to use old crush rings?


Good buzz...good fuel...should go...any chance your timer is off by 180 degrees? (Been there done that, won the T shirt myself)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David Kriegel Mishawaka Indiana on Sunday, October 19, 2014 - 05:14 pm:

Only other idea is compression ? What are your compression readings on your cylinders ? Have you just rebuilt the engine ?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Joseph A. Stearns on Sunday, October 19, 2014 - 05:28 pm:

Steve, from what you have reported, you don't know if the gas is reaching the spark plugs. It sounds like it is not getting gas to the plugs. I would either squirt a little gas or a good squirt of starting fluid in the carb opening. Pull out the choke wire, turn the key to BAT and give it a couple of pulls. Good luck, Joe


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Harold Schwendeman - Sumner,WA on Sunday, October 19, 2014 - 05:30 pm:

I had a similar situation a couple years ago and because of everything I tried that didn't help, I have a lot of "spare" stuff under the seat now for "just in case". What I finally did as a last resort, and actually felt like it was a waste of time, I drained the gas tank and got a couple gallons of fresh gasoline and once the NH carburetor bowl had fresh gasoline in it, the engine popped right off and ran perfect. All that to say, are you trying to start the engine on gasoline that has been in the tank for more than a month or two? I always thought that this new and modern (contains up to 10% whatever) getting stale much sooner than the old stuff was a bunch of bunk, but I have now changed my mind. FWIW,......harold


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Kenneth W DeLong on Sunday, October 19, 2014 - 05:44 pm:

Have you tried priming it? Gas at the carb might not mean gas in the engine? Bud.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Norman T. Kling on Sunday, October 19, 2014 - 06:53 pm:

Try a few drops of gas in the spark plug holes and then install the plugs and try to start it. If it runs for a short time and quits, your problem is that it is not getting enough gas or that your gas is no good.

If this is an engine which was recently rebuilt, you might need to pull with a long rope to get it to start. Once it is run for a while, it should start up easily. When the rings get settled in, you should find that it starts VERY easily.

If you had the manifolds off, you should re-torque them after you run the engine. My engine has an iron exhaust manifold and an aluminum intake manifold. I torqued it when I installed the manifolds. Then after running about 10 minutes noticed an exhaust leak. I turned off the engine and torqued again. Then the engine cooled down and the next morning before I drove it, I torqued the manifold again. I noticed the manifold rings had compressed by looking down between the head and manifolds. Now it runs smoothly and no exhaust leaks. Interestingly with aluminum heads you need to torque cold but with iron heads you torque hot. So I guess with the combination manifolds, I found that I needed to torque both hot and cold.

My engine actually needs less choking, and I even set the idle down after the rebuild. It runs so smoothly. At first it didn't have as much hill climbing power, but as I drive it more, the power increases.
Norm


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Leonard J Evansic on Sunday, October 19, 2014 - 08:16 pm:

Steve---My 15 was tough to get going after assembly, but a can only tell you how I got to where I am now. Spark full up. Gas half way down. Spray needle 3 turns out. Choke full closed. Now here is where I was having a problem. I'm 76 and as I was having a problem keeping the choke closed while pulling the crank up with my right hand while priming. I installed a small spring in my choke wire, to be sure the choke was fully closed during priming, Close choke, Four pulls--- 0pen choke---Turn ignition to BAT. If it doesn't start. Pull the crank up one time with my left hand and nine out of 10 times it will. Adjust your gas, spark, and spray needle in that order.
I had some problems with a straight thru Holly NH, but rebuilt and installed a Holly G---Very sweet carb.---I call it my puddle carb because of the Idle tube system.---Len


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Royce in Georgetown TX on Sunday, October 19, 2014 - 08:20 pm:

Steve,
Does it have any compression?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Jelf, Parkerfield KS on Sunday, October 19, 2014 - 09:00 pm:

Yep, lots of compression. Fresh engine. I don't think it has two hours running time on it yet. Uncle Mike wondered if I was 180º off, but I haven't had the timer rotor off, so it can't be that. I think Norm could be onto something with the manifold idea. I had to replace leaking freeze plugs because I didn't use enough goo the first time, and I had the manifolds off for that job. I'll check that next.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jim Derocher on Sunday, October 19, 2014 - 09:17 pm:

Are the plugs wet after several tries? Sounds to me like not enough gas as other have said. I like to have the spray needle out almost 2 turns at first. Good Luck!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By George Clipner-Los Angeles on Monday, October 20, 2014 - 01:36 am:

Starting fluid ? Even a weak spark will set that stuff off. I had great trouble with plug gap too wide. I noticed you had a lot off pitting on the side of the engine where the manifolds mate.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Royce in Georgetown TX on Monday, October 20, 2014 - 07:27 am:

Only things an engine needs are these three:

1. Proper mixture of gas and air
2. Spark at the proper time
3. Compression

I would try a teaspoon of gas divided between the four cylinders dribbled into the spark plug holes.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David Menzies on Monday, October 20, 2014 - 01:40 pm:

I read in a manual for starting procedures and 1 1/8 turn on the spray nozzle for starting (after choking) and 7/8 for running. I have used these settings with good results. The 1 1/8 turn to start is very sensitive (on my engines). After I shut down I reset the nozzle to 1 1/8 for the next cold start. One experience I had with a difficult/no start after cranking for a while I decided to recheck the spray nozzle position to find some body had been in the car and re-positioned it. It was re-turned to 1 1/8 turn and started ok.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Leonard J Evansic on Monday, October 20, 2014 - 02:54 pm:

On the G, you must open the needle before choking in order to put gas into the puddle so it can be sucked thru the Idle tube when choking. I don't know much about the NH.---Len


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Thomas Mullin on Monday, October 20, 2014 - 10:42 pm:

Steve,

If the gasoline was bought in the summer it likely is a lower volatility blend than what you need now that it is cooler. Temperatures under 60 degrees are going to be problematic with summer blend.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mike Garrison on Monday, October 20, 2014 - 11:10 pm:

Steve, elaborate just a little on the intake manifold and the procedure/type gaskets used to assemble. I tried the one piece rings on two or three engines over the last year and found them to be a nightmare. The beauty of the copper crush rings and steel inserts is there ability to move during alignment of the manifolds. I think I've got a plastic bag somewhere in the shop with a couple dozen one piece rings that are there to remind me of the trouble they caused in my life. I think the designer of the rings might have lost his grasp on the idea of fits and tolerances. Consider at the extremes there are about 20 different things that can happen with the high and low tolerances between mating parts. Then consider that manifolds are cast iron which is about as stable as a sponge for machining. There's a reason for the two piece rings and I figure the solid or one piece rings will work but only under the best set of circumstances. If you are fortunate enough to get the engine to run, open up the valve on your little propane torch and let it leak around the manifolds. If the manifold rings aren't sealed the RPM's will change.Beyond that, if you're getting spark at the right time, if you've got the desired compression, if the right amount of fuel and air are getting into the combustion chambers, if the fuel is fresh and if your arm holds out, it should start. Although a short anywhere in the wiring or an intermittent problem in the coils or more water than gas getting into the cylinders or... Well I guess I'm done here.You've got way too many things to consider that might be the problem and you certainly don't need my lack of experience influencing you on your endeavors. Good luck.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Jelf, Parkerfield KS on Tuesday, October 21, 2014 - 12:59 am:

I took today off to work on other stuff. I'll get back to this tomorrow. The manifolds have rings and copper crush gaskets, plus plenty of sealant. I've turned the nuts really tight. If there's any manifold leak at all, I can't imagine it's enough to keep the thing from at least trying to start. When I had the plugs out to see if they were working I noticed that although the tops of the pistons looked wet, the spark plugs were dry. To be continued.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John F. Regan on Tuesday, October 21, 2014 - 01:31 am:

Steve:

Laying plugs on the motor and seeing them spark is NOT a valid test of spark voltage. Not saying that is the problem but just about the worst and weakest coil you could own could probably pass that "spark test". A true test of the spark voltage would disconnect the spark plug wire from the plug and prop the end of it 1/4" away from the head and see if the spark can jump that far- it should. Do not set the gap wider for the test but do set it at 1/4" since that is much harder for the spark voltage to jump but a good coil should jump it. 1/32" spark plug gap under 4 to 1 compression is 4/32 = 1/8" gap and you are testing it at way less than that by using the spark plug without any compression. If you don't find anything further - do retest your spark voltage with a proper gap as outlined here.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Jelf, Parkerfield KS on Tuesday, October 21, 2014 - 01:57 am:

OK, will do. Thanx.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Tom Miller, Mostly in Dearborn on Tuesday, October 21, 2014 - 07:28 am:

Steve,

Did you have the spark plug wires off the coil box? Years ago, I reconnected the spark plug wires 4-3-2-1 instead of 1-2-3-4 on a previously running engine. The engine experienced the same symptoms you're seeing.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Jelf, Parkerfield KS on Tuesday, October 21, 2014 - 11:32 am:

Nope, no change in plug wires. I just did John's quarter-inch test and it was like Colin Clive bringing Boris Karloff to life. Big, beautiful sparks, 1, 2, 4, 3. Actually, that's what I expected from these Patterson coils with less than a thousand miles on them. Next: back to the carburetor.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Charlie B actually in Toms River N.J. on Tuesday, October 21, 2014 - 11:54 am:

It ran. It has compression. The pistons are wet and the plugs aren't. You have spark. It has to be something you did. The spark could be so far off that it's firing the plugs at the wrong time. carefully re-check your timing. I think that's your problem.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Jelf, Parkerfield KS on Tuesday, October 21, 2014 - 05:03 pm:

After another big dose of exasperation, time out to cool down. After confirming that the plug wires would all make a good quarter inch spark to the head, I turned my attention back to the carburetor. I had a hunch. I've been putting a gallon can under the car whenever I drain the carburetor to take it off. Looking in the can I saw little black things. Sure enough, when I pulled the carburetor off I looked in the fuel line pack nut and saw that the rubber washer was gas-eaten. Aha, thought I, that's it! Despite blowing out the passages, there must be some little bits of rubber in there blocking fuel delivery. So I took another NH off the touring, and when I went to town I stopped at the parts store and got a little scrap of neoprene hose to make a new washer. With the different NH on the car I started cranking. With the spray needle turned out a turn and a quarter I tried two pulls on choke and turned on the ignition. As before, on the first pulls there was a slight chuff, but no fire. I tried again with the adjustment out a turn and a half, then a turn and three quarters, and so on up to three full turns. Somewhere in there, at about two turns out on the carb adjustment, I think, I did get a fire and the engine struggled along for about three seconds until I advanced the spark, and that killed it. Then it was back to electric. I checked the timing for the umpteenth time and determined again that #1 was getting spark just past TDC. Next came plugs. I set the gap on all of them to .35 and tried again. And again, after choking, I got a little chuff, not even a cough, on the first few pulls. Again, with several different carburetor settings and with two, three, and four pulls on choke. Always a few little chuffs on the first pulls after choking, but no fire. I've been resisting the notion of an intake manifold leak because I thought I used plenty of high temp sealer and got it on good and tight. But I did have the manifolds off to replace the leaking freeze plugs, and the car ran OK before I did that job, so maybe that's it. We shall see.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ed Baudoux on Tuesday, October 21, 2014 - 05:30 pm:

Oil does 5 things inside an engine. It cleans, cools, cushions, lubricates, and seals. A lot of choking will rinse the oil off from the cylinder walls, and reduce the compression. Just a thought.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ricks - Surf City on Tuesday, October 21, 2014 - 05:44 pm:

"Next came plugs. I set the gap on all of them to .35 and tried again."

Really? How do you set a gap that wide? :-)

I would set the gaps at 0.020 to start.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Harold Schwendeman - Sumner,WA on Tuesday, October 21, 2014 - 06:25 pm:

Steve - Sorry you're having so much trouble. Hey, a couple of us have asked, but you never really did reply,.....how old is that gasoline in your tank? If you try that teaspoon or so of gasoline directly in the cylinders through the spark plug holes, just for the heck of it, use brand new FRESH gasoline to make Thomas and I happy,.....FWIW,......harold


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mike Walker, NW AR on Tuesday, October 21, 2014 - 06:53 pm:

"...determined again that #1 was getting spark just past TDC."

Steve -- You have mentioned this twice, but you didn't say that you determined that this occurred just after #1's compression stroke. Is this possibility one we can cross off our lists?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Norman T. Kling on Tuesday, October 21, 2014 - 08:56 pm:

Check to see if both valves are closed while the piston is moving up. That will prove it is the compression stroke.
Norm


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Donald Vagasky,Tucson on Tuesday, October 21, 2014 - 10:15 pm:

Check your timer,and roller, replace them if in doubt. Having a donater car is very handy to troubleshoot.
Don


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Jelf, Parkerfield KS on Wednesday, October 22, 2014 - 12:58 am:

When you put your thumb over the plug hole and feel the air pushing past it, that's the compression stroke. Unless I've gone completely senile, the timing is right. :-)

The gas is less than six months old. I've been using it in the mower, the mowing tractor, and the pickup with no trouble.

Took time out this evening for the series. Tomorrow I'll check out the intake manifold.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Harold Schwendeman - Sumner,WA on Wednesday, October 22, 2014 - 01:24 am:

Steve - Trust me on this one! It's gonna' sound weird, but when I had the same trouble you're having, I discounted all the talk I'd heard about this new gasoline going bad much quicker, because I ran a little test too. I drained some of the old gasoline out of the depot hack tank and filled up my lawn mower gas tank, and the mower ran fine. After that, I was "SURE" that all the talk about modern gas going bad in a short time was all "BS". But as I said before, as a last resort, and feeling foolish for doing it, I finally drained all the old gasoline out of the tank, took my two and a half gallon can down to the gas station and got fresh gas. Engine started instantly, after all that trouble! "NO MORE PROBLEM"! I am now a believer! Humor me Steve,.....try a teaspoon of FRESH gasoline dropped into each cylinder thru' the spark plug hole! I'm betting you'll get one good roar out of that engine, because it sure sounds like you've got everything else "right on the money"! FWIW,.....harold


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Harold Schwendeman - Sumner,WA on Wednesday, October 22, 2014 - 01:28 am:

Oh, and one more thing, my old stale gasoline was only about five month old!

O.K.,....I'll shut up now,......harold


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Jelf, Parkerfield KS on Wednesday, October 22, 2014 - 01:30 am:

I'm running out of things to try, so I guess that will be one of them. :-)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Harold Schwendeman - Sumner,WA on Wednesday, October 22, 2014 - 01:37 am:

Yeah, I know how ya' feel Steve! I was to the point of pulling my hair out, and I know that you must be,....ah,.....well,.....never mind,......


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Frank van Ekeren (Australia) on Wednesday, October 22, 2014 - 02:44 am:

Steve, I don't know how good your gas is in USA but if I have gas more than several weeks old in my T I have trouble getting it to fire up although the stuff will still run the mower etc. Add fresh and away she go's.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By tyler searle on Wednesday, October 22, 2014 - 05:12 am:

I'm going with a leak at the intake manifold or timing 180 off. Or both.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Jelf, Parkerfield KS on Wednesday, October 22, 2014 - 08:56 am:

Nope, not 180º timing. I've never had the rotor off since it was running. Fire on #1 is a hair past TDC on compression.We'll see about the gas and the manifold.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Andre Valkenaers on Wednesday, October 22, 2014 - 10:05 am:

Steve,
I am following this tread since the start and I think it is time to step back from this car for a day or two and clear up your mind by doing something total different.
Try this, try that and try this also will only confuse your mind

Than go back to basics and start all over again.
This always help for me.
After you have find the problem you will say to yourself: How is it possible I didn't see this at the first time.

I don't know how it went with you but as I started working on the Model T's, 20years ago, I had dark hair. Now, 20 years later, they become grey. Or was it the marriage 35 years ago that did it??

Good luck

Andre
Belgium

As I was nearer to you I would come and try to help.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Micheal Crowe on Wednesday, October 22, 2014 - 11:04 am:

Did you turn on the key?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John Aldrich Orting Wa on Wednesday, October 22, 2014 - 11:26 am:

Steve,

Had an engine that absolutely refused to fire and had not been run in a good long while (supposedly rebuilt/fresh with only a couple of hours on it). A couple of old hill billy redneck friends of mine pulled the plugs and put a cap-ful of oil into each cylinder. This "seals" the rings in each cylinder and improves vacuum to pull in gas.

2 pulls later she coughed and took off blowing a big blue cloud of smoke until the oil was burnt up. She still runs today with little to no effort to start and it is a hand crank only car.

I was (am) amazed at the difference oil in the cylinders made.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Jelf, Parkerfield KS on Wednesday, October 22, 2014 - 04:18 pm:

Bottom line: Sixty-four silver dollars to the gentlemen in Orting!

Here's today's report. First thing this morning I took off the intake manifold. Examining the high-temp RTV and the new copper rings I installed recently, it appeared that everything had been well sealed. I cleaned off the used RTV, tossed the rings, and reinstalled the manifold with new RTV and new copper rings. The steel rings, of course, were perfect because the engine hadn't run since I put them in. Still no start. Next was gas. I've always been a skeptic about The Bad Gas Theory, but at this point I was perfectly willing to become a convert. I drained all the old gas out of the tank and carburetor. (By the way, checking the historical record I found that I bought it last April 22, six months ago to the day.) When I went to town I took along a five gallon can and filled it with fresh gas, and when I got home I put a gallon of it in the roadster. Still no go. After seeing Ralph's comment about the big spark plug gap I didn't go as far as he suggested, but I did set them down to .30, which I believe is pretty close to Ford's recommendation. 1/32" isn't it? Still nothing. When I had the plugs out I noted that even after all the cranking they were still dry. So I took them out again, moved the crank a quarter turn past TDC so all the pistons were down in the cylinders, stuck an oil can spout in each hole, and gave each cylinder a squirt of motor oil. I put the plugs back in, choked, cranked again, and the engine fired up on the second pull. My temporary fix of the worn crank bushing had stretched, letting the fan hit the ratchet again, so I had to shut it off and attend to that. When I tried starting again, the engine fired once more and I let it run for a few minutes. So apparently the problem all along has been insufficient fuel getting into the engine. Now that the mystery is solved, sort of, I need to take some time away from this and get some other things done before the good weather goes south on me. But the question remains: Why wasn't a fresh engine with new rings sucking in enough fuel to start?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Roger Karlsson, southern Sweden on Wednesday, October 22, 2014 - 04:24 pm:

Maybe the rings hasn't seated yet, they'll seal better when you've run the engine an hour or so. Faster cranking, like pulling the T behind another car would perhaps have sucked enough fuel in for it to start even without the extra oil?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mark Strange on Wednesday, October 22, 2014 - 04:33 pm:

Steve, glad you finally got it started!

Now that the engine is rebuilt, you'll need to discard your old starting settings and find the starting settings that the new engine "likes".

It sounds like, at least for a while, that you'll need to turn the carb adjustment richer for starting than you were used to doing before.

I run a Kingston L4 on my car and it absolutely will not start without enrichment when it is cold.
I have to turn the mixture screw out 1/4 turn, then pull the crank twice with the choke on, then turn the key on and the engine will start with the crank. As soon as it starts, I begin leaning the carb back out as the engine warms up.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Royce in Georgetown TX on Wednesday, October 22, 2014 - 05:06 pm:

Open the carburetor mixture another turn. After it is running at a fast idle with timing lever halfway down adjust for best mixture. It's still too lean.

Squirting gas into each cylinder would have done the same thing.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Henry Petrino in Modesto, CA on Wednesday, October 22, 2014 - 05:51 pm:

Ed Baudoux should get 10% of that sixty-four silver dollars. He too was on the right track. :-) :-)

Glad you got it going, Steve! I know how frustrating this sort of thing can be.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Val Soupios on Wednesday, October 22, 2014 - 06:11 pm:

Regarding the bad gas theory, my '12 has gas in it that is 18 months old. I was going to drain it out and put fresh gas in before starting it again but decided to give it a try with the old gas first. I opened the mixture knob an extra 1/2 turn, opened the throttle all the way and pulled the crank through 4 times with full choke. I then turned on the switch and the car started on compression. I am not suggesting that gas should be left in the tank as long as I did but it is pretty clear to me that a Model T will start and run on gas that is far less than fresh.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Micheal Crowe on Wednesday, October 22, 2014 - 11:39 pm:

Steve mine are set at .25 Micheal Crowe


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John Aldrich Orting Wa on Thursday, October 23, 2014 - 02:41 am:

Steve,

Congrats!!! WHAT A GREAT FEELING IT IS!!

Can I get that it 64 "silver dollars"!!

;)

My 1915 that I had a similar problem with is as easy starting as my other 3 T's. Crazy world Bud...


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Jelf, Parkerfield KS on Thursday, October 23, 2014 - 08:35 am:

For those of you too young to remember: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dr._I.Q.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Roger Karlsson, southern Sweden on Thursday, October 23, 2014 - 08:50 am:

Something strange with the link to the quiz show? http://goo.gl/fF1uQ7


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Norman T. Kling on Thursday, October 23, 2014 - 11:59 am:

I don't know whether you oiled the rings when you installed the pistons. I pour oil over the rings just before I install the ring compressor. The oil seeps between the rings and the grooves of the piston. You see if the rings are installed dry, the oil ring will wipe off the oil from the cylinder and no oil will be drawn up into the grooves. The oil in the ring grooves seals the vacuum and compression which will allow the piston to draw in gas from the intake. After the engine has been run, the splash from the rods dipping in the oil pan will continue to oil the cylinders and the vacuum will continue to draw a bit of oil around the rings to keep them lubricated and as the rings seat, the vacuum and compression will increase.

Anyway, that's why I oil the rings when I install the pistons.
Norm


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Jelf, Parkerfield KS on Thursday, October 23, 2014 - 12:38 pm:

Norm, it's been over a year since the engine work was done, but I'm pretty sure we oiled the rings. I ran it again this morning, but had to use the oil trick again to get started. Now that I have it drivable I need to run it a bunch and seat those rings. Went for a spin around the block this morning (two miles) and liked the way the car zipped up the grades. There are no low pedal hills, but a couple of slopes steep enough for me to notice the improved zip. I'll start using the car for trips to go to town. But I'll make sure I have the oil can with me. :-)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mark Strange on Thursday, October 23, 2014 - 12:58 pm:

Hope the rings seat soon, pulling the plugs and squirting oil into the cylinders is going to get old fast.... :-)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ricks - Surf City on Thursday, October 23, 2014 - 02:40 pm:

Next time you pull the plugs, try .020 gap.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David Kriegel Mishawaka Indiana on Thursday, October 23, 2014 - 04:29 pm:

This was a great posting. This is why I like to work on Model T's. There is so much good advice to keep these cars running. Plus using google search for "My Model T will not start" this post will show up helping someone ten years from now !


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jim Derocher on Thursday, October 23, 2014 - 10:23 pm:

Steve, glad you got it going. I had trouble starting my T twice this summer. It has about 6 miles on the rebuild. I always thought that it was the carb, but the oil trick might have worked. I'm surprised that this isn't one of those old time fixes everyone has heard about. Thanks to John and Ed for the oil ideas. Jim Derocher, AuGres, MI


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Jelf, Parkerfield KS on Friday, October 24, 2014 - 03:57 pm:

Oh boy, here we go again. I had another booger of a time getting started this morning. Lots of priming and pulling, and occasional chuff, shut it off and try again. Ralph suggested a smaller plug gap, so I tried that. I went to .025, not .020, because the next size down on my gauge is only .018. I didn't detect any difference. While I had the plugs out I did the oil trick again, and with the throttle lever almost halfway down and the spray needle open two full turns, and four pulls on choke, a few more pulls on BAT finally got it going. Decided to go for another two-mile jaunt around the block, and all was well until I was climbing the first slope on the next road. Cough, splutter, splutter, cough, splutter. Then it smoothed out OK, then more cough and splutter, and about a quarter mile west of home it finally died. All the coughing and spluttering happened while climbing. The gauge showed a little under a gallon in the tank. Hoping the problem was just fuel starvation, I walked home, got a can with four more gallons in it, drove back to the T in the Suburban, and dumped in the gas. A couple of young guys in an SUV stopped, and one said he had some T experience. So he cranked while I manned the spark lever and we got it going again. I drove the T home, one of the other guys drove the Suburban back, and I put the roadster back in the shop and shut it off. So at this point the hard starting remains and I'm hoping the erratic running and the dying were just from not enough gas in the tank. I did take note of fan-on-ratchet dinging again, so that new crank bushing needs to go in before I run the car anymore. So that's the end of today's Model T adventure.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mark Strange on Friday, October 24, 2014 - 04:08 pm:

Sure sounds like fuel starvation due to low gas level to me. I like to keep the oval tank in my T between 5 and 8 gallons. :-)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Norman T. Kling on Friday, October 24, 2014 - 04:24 pm:

Try a full tank of gas and maybe all your troubles will be over. Around here if an under seat tank gets below 4 gallons it will sputter and stop on a hill, however, I am sure your hills are not as steep. We have some Ruckstell hills around here. I would, however, suggest you either try a different carburetor or clean yours. Sounds as though some of the passages might be restricted. When you do 4 pulls on the crank with the needle opened two full turns, you should have a puddle of gas on the floor under the carburetor. Are you sure the choke is closing completely? Try pulling it out all the way and look to see if it is completely closed. You have more than one T. If you have one which runs very well try swapping the carburetor and see what happens. Then put the carburetor from the 15 on the other one and see if you have the same symptoms as you have with the 15.
Norm


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ricks - Surf City on Friday, October 24, 2014 - 06:24 pm:

OK, try .018 on the gap. Many light aircraft engines run .016 gap.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Andrew Deckman, Ogden Utah on Friday, October 24, 2014 - 08:23 pm:

Ditto what Mark says more fuel means more pressure. :-)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David Dewey, N. California on Friday, October 24, 2014 - 09:12 pm:

Well, if this keeps up, look for some plugs or plug adapters with the priming cups in them--then you won't have to pull the plugs to add oil!! :-)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jim Derocher on Friday, October 24, 2014 - 09:16 pm:

I think a fuller tank will help, but I think I'd open up the timer and wipe everything clean,lube it up as usual,look the roller over and then try again. Good Luck Steve, Jim


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mike Vaughn on Friday, October 24, 2014 - 09:51 pm:

Just thinking that you have not mentioned your timer. What are you using? I have had New Day timers work well at low rpm but start sputtering at higher rpm when they were worn also making it hard to start. Roller timers can act much the same way. You can slowly crank and all will fire as normal but pick up some rpm and then there are problems. I have had Anderson timers act weird if there is too much of the timer lube on the contacts. Again just thinking you might want to check your timer if you haven't done so already.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Royce in Georgetown TX on Friday, October 24, 2014 - 09:52 pm:

I would try a different carburetor. Two gallons of gas is plenty. One is not enough.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Jelf, Parkerfield KS on Friday, October 24, 2014 - 10:22 pm:

After I dumped in four gallons of gas the car ran OK coming up the grade toward home, so that indeed may have been the only problem behind the sputtering and coughing and stalling. Carburetors: The NH that was on the car has always worked OK before. As I mentioned above, I took out the setscrews blocking the passages and blew everything out. When that didn't change anything I took the NH off the 23 touring, which worked fine there, and tried it. No change. The timer is a New Day I installed when I got the car three years ago, and it's never given me any trouble. But I will check it out before I run the car again. That, and the .018 gap, and anything else I try, will wait until I get that new crank bushing put in.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Garnet on Friday, October 24, 2014 - 11:30 pm:

You may have to scrape those passages out with a guitar string as Uncle Stan tells. I think yer supposed to hum 'Classical Gas' at the same time ...

Garnet


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Paul Mikeska, Denver CO on Saturday, October 25, 2014 - 02:45 am:

Steve,

My 14 got hard to start and one day I killed it in a parking lot when a jackass ran a stop sign in front of me. I cranked and cranked and it would not start. I rested for a bit with my car in the middle of an intersection and then spun the crank risking broken bones and the car finally started. Long story short it turned out that the ground path to the engine was bad and the voltage drop to the coil box was so low that the coils would not fire. Try installing a 12 gauge wire directly from the battery to the engine block and see if that helps.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Redelman on Saturday, October 25, 2014 - 10:18 am:

Steve, I had a friend who had a problem like you are having which was hard starting but run OK after it got going. What I found after trying just about everything was when he took the block to the machine shop they cut the seats for the valves using an expandable guide in the valve guides to cut the seats but the wear in the guide allowed the valve to not find it's seat with the spring assembled at very slow rotation resulting in low vacuum when turning over by hand once running it was better. I put new valve guides in the block re-cut the seats, lapped in the valves and presto many starts on one pull also got some free starts from then on. He couldn't believe that was what was wrong with it. This is just something I would check. Good luck and many free starts for you, Steve


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Jelf, Parkerfield KS on Saturday, October 25, 2014 - 11:41 am:

That brings up another question. Does it matter whether you measure vacuum or compression? They both depend on the valves closing properly, so I would think not.

In this case I doubt that's a factor. Just pulling the crank you can feel plenty of compression, much more than before the engine work was done. I helped Mike Bender with the valves, and I think we did it right.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John Aldrich Orting Wa on Saturday, October 25, 2014 - 11:48 am:

Steve,

Just for grins I decided to start my 1915 yesterday (the engine like yours that started this thread). Set the timing and gas, turned the key to "BAT" and got a free start.

The car has been setting untouched for at least a week.

I love my T!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Charles W. Little South Paris, Maine on Friday, October 31, 2014 - 11:57 am:

Any update?

The suspense is killing me!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Seth from NC on Friday, October 31, 2014 - 12:21 pm:

Yes, update please! I hate these kind of stupid problems that don't have a smoking gun to fix and then be done with.

What does the sediment bulb look like Steve, is it cleaned out and good to go (wire mesh included)?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mark Strange on Friday, October 31, 2014 - 12:52 pm:

Based on his blog, I think Steve has set the car aside to catch up on other chores and work on the roof of his house before winter sets in:

http://www.dauntlessgeezer.com/blog1014.html

:-)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bob Coiro on Friday, October 31, 2014 - 01:10 pm:

Steve,
A lot has been said in this thread about fuel flow and testing spark plugs, etc. -I had a problem similar to yours this past season and it cost me most of August and half of September. -I changed everything electrical including the ignition harness, had the coils overhauled and tuned, polished terminals and connections, etc. -I avoided changing out the timer because it was something I'd never done before and what with the limited access between the radiator and engine, was afraid of it. -When I finally changed out the timer and rotor, the problem was solved. -Turned out removing the roller wasn't all that hard after all (but at this point, I do regret installing an identical Ford roller timer instead of changing it out for a TW Timer—I hear they're great). -In any case, a spare timer is a good thing to have in the storage compartment and at times like these, when nothing seems to work, it can't hurt to give the spare a try.

http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/411944/469283.html?1411180280


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Jelf, Parkerfield KS on Friday, October 31, 2014 - 10:22 pm:

Yes, Mark is right. I've been taking some time off to work on the house. Specifically, making scaffolds for rebuilding the living room roof.



With a bit of unfriendly weather in the forecast, I'll be back in the shop for at least a couple of days, so I'll get back to the roadster for a bit.
Yesterday I had to go to Wichita, so I stopped at a bearing store and bought some bronze bushings to replace the #3903 steel bushing. I got three extras to use on other cars. I need to make that switch on the roadster before I run it again.

Bob, I've never had a lick of trouble from the New Day I've always run on this car, but I'll check it out.


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