Canadian Ford Engine Number

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Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2014: Canadian Ford Engine Number
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John H. Nichols on Monday, October 20, 2014 - 02:12 pm:

I recently acquired two Canadian Model T Engines.

Serial number for 1st block is C 295,693. The serial number before this number is C 295,500 with manufacturing date of 5-17-21 and the number after C 295,500, is C 296,000 with manufacture date of 5-14-21. I t would seem logical that the manufacture date for C 295,693 would be around the 21st of May 1921 and the numbered for inclusion in any future revision of Bruce McCalley's (RIP) Excellent Reference.

Engine # 2 Serial # is C 414,302 Which indicates that this block remained in Canada. In the reference cited above the engine number prior to
C 414,302 is C 413,487 which went to Australia,
and the following number C414,702 which stayed in Canada

I think both numbers should be earmarked for inclusion in any revision of the excellent reference book by Bruce McCalley (RIP)

Comments ?

John


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Rod McKenzie on Tuesday, October 21, 2014 - 08:45 pm:

This may help you. I have no records of any C414... numbers on the New Zealand register, but several C411...'s, then some C415...'s.
There is a huge gap of "no engines" in the 1921 period as there was depression, so no numbers recorded between C280185 and C329012.
Rod McKenzie Registrar for MTFCNZ


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Peter Kable on Wednesday, October 22, 2014 - 12:14 am:

Rob, In Australia a depression did not effect the sales of cars, what we had was a inability to get stock.
After the war shipping was so hard to obtain that getting anywhere near the number of Fords (or other cars) was extremely difficult.
It took 3 years before normal supplies were returned. If you have a 1918 to 1921 Ford here it is a lot rarer than those later.

This ad was placed in April 1921 announcing that at last orders could be full filled.

wait


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hap Tucker in Sumter SC on Wednesday, October 22, 2014 - 08:30 am:

John,

Thank you so much for posting the data on your Canadian engine blocks. Yes, that is something I believe would be helpful to add to Bruce’s (R.I.P.) list of Canadian Serial Numbers and castings dates. I’ve been collecting data with hopes to one day help start a group to continue expanding on Bruce’s excellent information and in a few places make some corrections or updates that have been discovered. [For additional information about that dream – please see: http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/80257/111749.html Like many others, my retirement plans keep slipping to the right. And I will also gladly support someone or group’s efforts if they get to it before I do. ]

It took me a second cup of caffeine before I figured out that you were most likely referring to the Bruce McCalley’s “Canadian Serial Numbers” section, pages 539 to 546 of his book “Model T Ford” [also in his CD version]. But when I checked there the serial numbers you listed before and after your serial numbers, they were the same – so highly likely that is the reference. Another possibility would be the original article in the “Vintage Ford” where Bruce initially began compiling that Canadian information.

When you have time, would you please check the blocks to see if they have a casting date on them? The photos below were provided by Vic Patterson (thank you Vic!) and show the earlier style casting date that was in a line and then the later style that was in a circle.





Again thank you for posting the additional information. When Bruce initially started gathering the information folks had to write a letter, put it in an envelope, put a stamp on it (extra postage if they didn’t live in the USA) and send it in. Now we have the benefit of the Internet where we can send an e-mail or make a posting with out the stamp part.

Rod – thank you for adding the information from the New Zealand registry. Hopefully as we continue to add additional pieces to the puzzle we will have a better understanding of what happened when or at least a better theory of what happened when.

Peter – thank you for the additional information about the shipping log jam.

And if others have Canadian blocks (or engines) that are not already listed in Bruce’s listing (or you don’t know one way or the other) please post them and/or send me an e-mail. You can click on my name and it brings up my profile and my e-mail address is the third line down. If you have one of those blocks please let us know the serial number (and the C or other letter that might be in front of the numbers); casting date; type of core plugs (also called freeze plugs the earlier pipe threaded or the later Welch plug); two valve cover or single valve cover; generator block or not; and does it have the bolt holes on the back for the later 1926-27 style transmission; and if it does have those holes are they threaded? Does it have the “Made in USA” chiseled off; does it have “Made in Canada” on the block on the left side. Does it have Ford in script on the left side of the block or is it plain. Photos are always welcomed and are often very helpful.

Respectfully submitted,

Hap l9l5 cut off


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John Warren on Friday, October 31, 2014 - 09:13 am:

John, I am looking for a Canadian engine for my 26 touring car. The engine in the car is a 24 Canadian. Are you interested in selling or trading? Thanks, John Warren 702-353-4436


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By john h mcintyre on Friday, October 31, 2014 - 06:20 pm:

john i have a 26 touring engine canadian completly rebuilt and never put in a car


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ray Green on Saturday, November 01, 2014 - 08:42 am:

John Nichols. It is not logical that the manufacture date for C 295,693 would be around the 21st of May 1921. Here is a quick excert from the first pages that I still have and you can see they are all over the place. I still have unentered number with a wider spread of months for that year.. Ray


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ray Green on Saturday, November 01, 2014 - 08:46 am:

The list will not load so will try again, attempt number 3... Ray


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John H. Nichols on Saturday, November 01, 2014 - 12:27 pm:

Hap,

I will recheck the numbers, and casting dates which I thought I had recorded. A friend is storing the engines in his barn, and he has gone to FL for a couple of months. As soon as he gets back he will disassemble. Hopefully I will get some core parts and usable parts for my '16.

Both blocks will be available ( read very affordable) once they are bare. One of them does have rust in the valve cover area. The other block looks as if the oil had never been changed.

There is one more block I need to pick up that is partially stripped.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John H. Nichols on Saturday, November 01, 2014 - 12:34 pm:

Hap,

I will recheck the numbers, and casting dates which I thought I had recorded. A friend is storing the engines in his barn, and he has gone to FL for a couple of months. As soon as he gets back he will disassemble. Hopefully I will get some core parts and usable parts for my '16.

Both blocks will be available ( read very affordable) once they are bare. One of them does have rust in the valve cover area. The other block looks as if the oil had never been changed.

There is one more block I need to pick up that is partially stripped.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Rob Patterson on Saturday, November 01, 2014 - 03:47 pm:

Hap & Ray,
Years ago I was lead to believe that the reason the numbers are "all over the place" is because the actual production dates are none existent and these dates have been compiled from shipping dates. Is this the case?
One of my engines has a number C320459 indicating a date of late October 1921, but a casting date of July 18 1921, indicating it sat around for over 3 months before it was numbered/shipped.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David Chantrell - Adelaide, Australia on Saturday, November 01, 2014 - 04:38 pm:

Engine blocks, both USA & Canada, were cast and then seasoned. Stock control should allow the blocks to be cast and made with about 4-6 weeks or so, perhaps a little longer. For Canadian blocks seasoned for 3 months is not uncommon, neither is 5-6 months either. Depends on casting times, machining times, poor stock rotation, weather, snowed in etc.

The only dating fact I normally stick by is the casting date is before the 'C' number on the block. I have seen a 1917 block with a 1918 engine number, 9 months between casting and production. If the casting date is after the number then it is time to look real close as too the reason why, normally a replacement block, but attempted fakes do occur from time to time, particularly in the earlier years.

Canadian engine number lists have been around for years. Ray's is pretty accurate, although not the same as my list. Interestingly I also have C295XXX as April 1921. My list has C320XXX as December 1921. (C323,300 was assembled on 31st December 1921).

Interestingly my list and Ray Greens list are within a month of each other. Hope this helps.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John H. Nichols on Sunday, November 02, 2014 - 02:14 pm:

Hap & David.

I am embarrassed to say that I had the casting date for the first block, C 295693 is 4 April 1921. When I purchased the two blocks in question, it was for spare parts and core items.
Neither block is 100% complete. I am now thinking of retaining for now the 1st block, since
I do have an extra frame upon which I can put
a 1915 Canadian Touring Tub, and I can build a wooden box to go on the back. But that's another topic.

My intention was to bring to light these two block numbers since the Canadian records seem to be somewhat sketchy.

I will take some pictures and forward via snail.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John H. Nichols on Sunday, November 02, 2014 - 08:21 pm:

To all who have commented, I can only say thanks
for the education and look forward to other comments.

John


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John H. Nichols on Sunday, November 02, 2014 - 08:36 pm:

Hap

Someday I promise to get my thinking organized.

The casting date for block 1 295,XXX is different
than what the Vic Patterson showed. The casting date is shown thus
imagine a clock face 4 at 9 o'clock
13 at 6

21 at 3

I miss entered the number above and reviewed my notes I had made.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hap Tucker in Sumter SC on Sunday, November 02, 2014 - 09:26 pm:

John,

Thank you for tracking down a little more of the information. Below is a Canadian casting date diagram (Thank you John Page).



Note it has the letters for the years but before that they put the two digit number for the year in the same 3 o’clock position. I believe Vic Patterson’s casting date is in that same design. The USA casting date used a circle for a while and it had the numbers at different clock positions.

For Rob – there are multiple sources for the information. If you have access to Bruce McCalley’s (R.I.P.) book or CD, at the bottom of the pages 540 to 546 he has the numbers marked with an * are from the Ford Archives Canada; ** are from the Ford Owner & Dealer (June 1922); # are from Ford Service Bulletins Canada. The casting dates were supplied by individuals who had access to read the serial numbers and the casting date. And a big thank you to Ray Green and others who helped gather that information and send it to Bruce for inclusion in the Nov – Dec 1981 “Vintage Ford” pages 28 – 34. Note that Bruce’s list had a Mfg Date for some engines. He obtained those dates from the different references (*; **; # ) listed above. Bruce noted in the introduction that the Canadian numbers “are incomplete, and those that do exist would appear to be even less accurate than those supplied by Ford in the US.” He also added, “None of these lists is believed to be accurate except in cases where indicated otherwise. For example, it is also highly unlikely that almost every month would begin and end on even numbers, as they indicate. The Bulletin numbers are out of sequence, which may be correct, but one wonders if they could have been as far out as they indicate. “

There are still many additional details to discover or more accurately rediscover. Note also that Ford did NOT need to age engine blocks. There are numerous cases where the casting date and the serial number date on a USA manufactured engine are the same day or the next day etc. I’m 90 % sure that somewhere there is a list of “Model T Myths” that Bruce put together. One of those myths was that Ford “aged” the cylinder blocks. Ford did have a time between the blocks were cast and machined but it appears it was more a matter of how they were stored and retrieved than a plan to age them a certain number of days or months. If I can locate that or if someone else has a copy or link please let us know. Additionally for Canadian engine production, I believe I recalled reading that the casting area continued to produce blocks during the winter that would be machined later. That allowed Ford of Canada to keep the workers employed during winter when Canadian sales were down and have a supply of blocks ready to machine when sales picked back up. I will look for that reference also – or if someone else has it please let us know. Note until I can locate and share the reference -- it is from memory -- and trust me -- mine is not as good as it once was!

Again thank you to everyone who is helping us capture additional details one what occurred or likely occurred. Many folks are capturing the details on different years, body styles, etc. and that is great – thank you all for doing that!

Respectfully submitted,

Hap l9l5 cut off


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Rob Patterson on Tuesday, November 04, 2014 - 12:27 am:

Hello Hap,
Here's some more info for you. The details of the 4 blocks I own.

C536248, Jan 1925, casting date; Nov 25th B,
C464528, Jan 1924, casting date; Jan 8th B,
C272391, Oct 1920, casting date; Apr 30th 20,
C320459, Oct 1921, casting date; July 18th 20.

Cheers,
Rob


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hap Tucker in Sumter SC on Tuesday, November 04, 2014 - 08:16 am:

Rob,

Thank you so much! As we gather additional puzzle pieces sometimes we end up with more questions than we started. But sometimes one of those pieces is the one that ties the other 3 or more pieces together so we can see the picture better. Blue pieces with birds -- possibly sky. Blue pieces with fish -- possibly water.

I think the fossil record will help us the most with linking casting dates to engine serial numbers. I think the Canadian export / shipping ledgers may help us link the serial numbers to the when they were shipped. At the moment -- I do not know how far into the Ts the Canadian export ledgers go. They cover the C through S nicely. But I don't know how far they go beyond that. Or more specifically how far the available ledgers go beyond that.

Again thank you so much for adding those numbers.

Respectfully submitted,

Hap l9l5 cut off


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John H. Nichols on Thursday, November 06, 2014 - 03:29 pm:

Bumpty Bump


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David Chantrell - Adelaide, Australia on Thursday, November 06, 2014 - 04:23 pm:

According to my list:-

C536XXX assembled March 1925.
C464XXX assembled February 1924.
C272XXX assembled October 1920.
C320XXX assembled in the last days of November 1921.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hap Tucker in Sumter SC on Thursday, November 06, 2014 - 08:24 pm:

Thanks David.

Respectfully submitted,

Hap l9l5 cut off


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John H. Nichols on Saturday, November 08, 2014 - 02:28 pm:

Hap & all others

I got a chance to re-look at Block # C 414,302
and looked at the casting date. In the dim light of the flashlight it appears that the number at the 9 o'clock position has been obliterated as has the number at 3 O'clock. The remaining number is 30, indicating day.

I have one more block to pick up within the next 30 dasys and will keep you informed.

I anticipate that I will keep the 21 block for now and will let the other two blocks who will use


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John H. Nichols on Saturday, November 08, 2014 - 02:39 pm:

Sorry drifting away again. My wife says I would lose John Thomas if it wasn't attached by its skin.

I meant to say above that the other Canadian blocks will be allowed to find a new home as soon as possible, providing they have no major damage
or cracks.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John H. Nichols on Saturday, November 08, 2014 - 02:51 pm:

For Rod McKenzie and Peter Cable

The information you both gave is greatly appreciated. Every little piece of data helps to build the larger picture.

Thank you gentlemen and I once visited Australia
back in 1965 for 15 days. Most is a blur today
and sometimes I wonder if that is where my PTSD
started because I had to return to duty in Nam.
( just kidding)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John H. Nichols on Saturday, November 08, 2014 - 02:58 pm:

Ray,
I beg your humble pardon. I was not trying to say that the engines I have in hand were ever in Australia. Only that they were not and might give you and idea the end off a shipping span.

You will have to excuse an old man who sometimes
seem to put mouth in gear before engaging brain.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ray Green on Saturday, November 08, 2014 - 07:03 pm:

John, you do not have to beg my pardon as I give them freely, were did I say they were in Australia??
I pointed out that casting numbers on blocks could be any time in a run to go with a set of engine numbers by what I have recorded. This is the reason why I stopped helping people and refuse to share what I have any more.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John H. Nichols on Saturday, November 08, 2014 - 07:07 pm:

& some people say I brush my teeth with gun powder, since I seem to always shooting my mouth off

John


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John H. Nichols on Saturday, November 08, 2014 - 07:19 pm:

Thank you Ray for pointing out my misguided thought process. I did not mean to raise your ire
and stand corrected.

John


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John H. Nichols on Saturday, November 08, 2014 - 07:22 pm:

For Rod McKenzie and Peter Cable

The information you both gave is greatly appreciated. Every little piece of data helps to build the larger picture.

Thank you gentlemen and I once visited Australia
back in 1965 for 15 days. Most is a blur today
and sometimes I wonder if that is where my PTSD
started because I had to return to duty in Nam.
( just kidding)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John H. Nichols on Saturday, November 08, 2014 - 07:24 pm:

Sorry drifting away again. My wife says I would lose John Thomas if it wasn't attached by its skin.

I meant to say above that the other Canadian blocks will be allowed to find a new home as soon as possible, providing they have no major damage
or cracks.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John H. Nichols on Saturday, November 08, 2014 - 07:44 pm:

Hap,

I finally had time to sit down and read the 2009 post you suggested.

Would you please contact me at john115@hughes.net

John


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John H. Nichols on Saturday, November 08, 2014 - 08:10 pm:

Sorry drifting away again. My wife says I would lose John Thomas if it wasn't attached by its skin.

I meant to say above that the other Canadian blocks will be allowed to find a new home as soon as possible, providing they have no major damage
or cracks.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ray Green on Saturday, November 08, 2014 - 08:20 pm:

John, you have not raised my ire, in recent times I have lost interest and my T has not moved in a year.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hap Tucker in Sumter SC on Saturday, November 08, 2014 - 10:05 pm:

John,

I sent an e-mail to you -- thank you for asking. Also it is not uncommon for the casting date to have some issues. If they didn't clean all the sand out of the numbers from the previous time it was used for the casting or if there was a bubble etc. then it will be difficult or impossible to read in some cases.

Respectfully submitted,

Hap l9l5 cut off


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David Chantrell - Adelaide, Australia on Sunday, November 09, 2014 - 06:55 am:

Canadian assembled model 'T's infiltrated the known world, they turn up in all sorts of places, even Australia. Much like "Star Trek" episodes. I for one am willing to share, learn, correct, pass across, whichever is applicable in our quest for the true model 'T'.

PS - it was not assembled in the LHD land US of A!!!!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ray Green on Sunday, November 09, 2014 - 07:23 am:

Hi David, your one of the good guys, my T has not moved in a year and is becoming a storage bin for the shed, I think of selling it some times and getting a new toy. Oh thats right, I did get a new toy did I not but I could use another one. Some one will get a good car one day...
Tell you what, I will send you all of my T paper work so you can help others... Ray


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Peter Kable on Sunday, November 09, 2014 - 05:55 pm:

Hap, the reference to Canadian engines being stored in winter came from a Ford Owner Dealer magazine from around 1923


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