1914 touring that's available, thoughts on value

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Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2014: 1914 touring that's available, thoughts on value
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David Coco on Thursday, October 23, 2014 - 09:47 pm:

A long time friend died, left his 1914 touring, it was a meticulous restoration about 25 years ago, and still looks great. Appears to be all correct brass and all goodies, speedo horn lights etc. Car not run in 15 or so years as his health failed.

I looked at car and engine number is correct for January 1914 production. Car is very, very nice, needs general cleaning and get it running. It's covered up in the garage where it's lived for a long time, and due to circumstance was only able to take a few pictures with cover still on.

I know what you guys are going to say, need pictures etc. and so forth. But trust me, I know cars, and this is a good one, from what I can see and what I know of the deceased owner.

Asking $20K, which I think is high, feel it's a 15-16K car. Thoughts? And please, I know, wish I had pictures out in the sun of every detail, but for discussion sake assume this is a very correct, very nice, older restoration.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Royce in Georgetown TX on Thursday, October 23, 2014 - 09:56 pm:

1914 is a model year that lasted longer than any other, from the summer of 1913 until as late as February 1915 for some body styles (touring is one). It is a very interesting model year, with great differences in parts used on early cars compared to later ones. The 1914 Model T is perhaps the ultimate wood firewall Model T. Sturdy, well built body and reliable running gear.

If it is a good driver and has decent paint and upholstery it would be impossible for it to be worth less than $15K if it has a clear title that matches the engine VIN.

1914 was a great year for the Model T.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Jelf, Parkerfield KS on Thursday, October 23, 2014 - 09:56 pm:

From your description I would go with the 15-16 grand estimate. I also agree that the $20,000 price is a bit optimistic, but they may get it if they wait long enough and happen to get lucky.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David Coco on Thursday, October 23, 2014 - 10:11 pm:

Thanks for input. I'm considering it but it may be available. Hope to get back for better look this weekend.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Karl Gilchrist on Thursday, October 23, 2014 - 11:57 pm:

David in New Zealand it would be worth the equivalent of US 20,000 all day long. I would recommend a T I love my 1913 . Not perhaps as pretty looking as our Model 20s but so much more practical and useable. Karl


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Paul Mikeska, Denver CO on Friday, October 24, 2014 - 12:42 am:

Here is my take on this for what it is worth (not much). 1908 to 1912 cars are made of un-obtanium to the average guy. 1913 and 1914 cars start the assembly line and can be had by the guy that saves his lunch money for 25 to 30 years. 1915 and 1916 start to be available to guys that have kicked the kids out of the house. 1917 to 1919 cars are sensible if you are into cranking them. 1920 to 1923 and 1924 to 1925 cars are what the average uninformed masses will identify as a Model T and they can be had for a reasonable price. 1926 and 1927 cars will earn you a comment at the gas station of "What year is your Model A." Buy what you can afford and then have a blast learning about life in the slow lane.

(Message edited by paulmikeska on October 24, 2014)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David Kriegel Mishawaka Indiana on Friday, October 24, 2014 - 06:46 am:

Paul's comments should be placed in the Model T Encyclopedia of car values ! Well though out


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David Coco on Friday, October 24, 2014 - 08:19 am:

Karl, I agree, the Model 20 Hupp is a very attractive car...and it's always been interesting to me the high survival rate and the low value. Mine is in the 5000 serial number range, a 1910, if it were a T of the same year would be, as mentioned above, un-obtanium...but while not a dime a dozen, early Hupps are still easily found and very affordable.

I've followed this forum for a few years, you guys have a lot of fun, and while I've owned a lot of cars over the years, never a T, and I've only driven one. After that experience, I'd like to grow another arm to drive another, but guess it's doable with what the good Lord gave us....


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dale Kemmerer on Friday, October 24, 2014 - 09:45 am:

David, If the car is as correct and nice as you say ad they won't budge on the price then I would still seriously consider getting it. After a few years you won't miss the extra bucks and you'll still have the car.
Most of the guys on this forum think I paid too much for my 09 touring and maybe I did but I have one now and I'm still not sorry I stepped up and did it. That's just my opinion
Dale


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steven Thum on Friday, October 24, 2014 - 12:50 pm:

A 1913 here in St. Louis recently sold for $20,000. It was a sharp car and went to Germany.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By mike conrad on Friday, October 24, 2014 - 01:26 pm:

Hi David
Heres my take, I would at the very least have the caretakers of this car pull it out and wash it for you or let you wash it completely. then do a evaluation at that point. also at 20 grand I would want to hear it run.
start with the low number at 15 grand, don't insult the car but make mention of the work it will need to make it a sirvicable car. If the car is indeed as nice as said and runs good with no needs 20 grand is not crazy money.
one other thing to consider if you were to find a cheaper car likely you would have to transport it and that can cost. Good luck. hope it works out for you.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By mike copperthite on Friday, October 24, 2014 - 02:41 pm:

I paid $7,500. to re-acquire a 1914 Model T Pie Truck our family purchased new 100 years ago! They had me at Hello when we confirmed that it truly was indeed bought by my great great grandfather! Rich No! First job paid .65 cents an hour, Second one a buck ten. Rich Family History Heck Yes! www.cocopieco.com


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bob Bishop, San Diego on Friday, October 24, 2014 - 03:41 pm:

David,
I asked the same question on the forum about 8 months ago when I had the opportunity to purchase a quality, fully restored, all stock, 1914 touring (body by Ray Wells, high quality upholstery and top, ran great). Built Oct 7, 1913. I got estimates from $12,000 to $20,000. They were asking $25,000 (this is California for what it's worth). I offered $15,000, they wouldn't go below $17,000, so I paid it. Best thing I've ever done!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Norman T. Kling on Friday, October 24, 2014 - 04:38 pm:

It all depends on how much you want the car and whether you are willing to take a chance.

If the body and upholstery is merely dirty, but will clean up nicely without scratches, rust or dents, the upholstery is not mouse eaten etc. Then the next thing would be to get it running. You can't tell what you are going to get into until you get it running. It will cost you around 3,000 to completely rebuild the engine, more for the transmission. And that is if you do as much work as you can yourself. You might be talking about 5,000 or more if you have it done by someone else, and you really don't know for sure how much work it will take without driving it. Most likely the gas tank and fuel system will take some cleaning out before it will even start.

You should also check out the wheels and suspension. Everything should be tight or those parts will also need to be rebuilt. And after setting for so long, it might also need new tires.

So with those things in mind, I would suggest you make your offer of 15 or 16K for as is, and tell them you might be willing to pay more if they can get it running and you can test drive it.

Just my thinking.
Norm


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ted Dumas on Friday, October 24, 2014 - 05:01 pm:

I would decide how bad I wanted it. Do you want the 1914 or a bargain the most. If I wanted the car I would make them a fair offer and be prepared to pay more.

You could fool around trying to buy it while someone else gets wind of it and drives away with it.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mike Walker, NW AR on Friday, October 24, 2014 - 05:50 pm:

It hasn't been that long since late brass cars were going for about $8K. Now a decent one is mid-teens. Before you know it, you won't be able to find one for $20K.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Frank Canino on Friday, October 24, 2014 - 07:11 pm:

Paul Mikeska...........

I LOVE the way you said what you said above......
You never cease to amuse and entertain me.....


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Harold Schwendeman - Sumner,WA on Friday, October 24, 2014 - 07:12 pm:

David - To add to what "Mike" and "Mike" and a couple other guys have said, there's probably another way to look at it ( or, maybe just another way to justify it) is that the way things are going with Model "T's (and historically, the way things have always gone) even if you end up feeling like you paid a bit too much, if you plan on keeping the car for at least several years, it almost doesn't matter how much you paid, a Model "T" is never worth any less with the passage of time, only more!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Harold Schwendeman - Sumner,WA on Friday, October 24, 2014 - 07:14 pm:

......and besides that, your "long time friend" would be pleased!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Val Soupios on Friday, October 24, 2014 - 07:56 pm:

If it runs well it is worth 20K easily. If not, it is well worth 20K less the cost of redoing the drive train. When you figure what it costs to restore a car these days buying one that is presentable as a driver makes the best economic sense and from your description it sounds like a good deal either way at 20K. I never regretted buying any of the cars I own even when I thought I was paying more than I should have for them. On the other hand I sure regret having sold some of them!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David Coco on Friday, October 24, 2014 - 09:40 pm:

Great thoughts, thanks everyone...as mentioned, hoping to get back to car this weekend and discuss with son...thanks! Dc


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Karl Gilchrist on Saturday, October 25, 2014 - 12:12 am:

David I had my T out this morning. Took it for a 50 mile drive to see my uncle on his farm. The last time I went to see him I took the Hupp and the magneto blew up and I came home on a tow rope. Today the T hummed along at 40 mph and never missed a beat. I love driving the Hupp, and I think I have it pretty reliable now but I never get the feeling of indestructablity with it that I get when I am in the T. Karl


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Val Soupios on Saturday, October 25, 2014 - 11:30 am:

Karl, what is a comfortable top end for the Hupp 20? I followed one on a tour last year and had a lot of trouble staying behind it. In high with the T on level ground I kept,gaining on the Hupp even with the throttle closed.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David Coco on Saturday, October 25, 2014 - 02:45 pm:

I'm sure Karl will chime in, but a stock Hupp Model 20 is good for about 35 mph steady. I've had mine up to 45, but with the VERY quick rack and pinion steering, it gets a little scary. That's on level ground. A steep hill is another story, first is too low and high too high, back and forth, as a friend says you end up "rowing" the car up the hill. He's the same friend that said he wished my runabout was a touring car, that way I could carry two more people to help push!!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David Coco on Saturday, October 25, 2014 - 05:29 pm:

Got a half way decent picture today, not perfect (the picture that is, the car's pretty darned nice).


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dave Dufault on Saturday, October 25, 2014 - 06:42 pm:

David,
You typed: "But trust me, I know cars, and this is a good one, from what I can see and what I know of the deceased owner."

I suspect that if you don't buy it, you will forever wish that you had. Yes, you can certainly find a T for less money, but it may not be in such nice condition. Since you know the car and knew the owner, give it some serious thought.

Other accessories & Spare parts included?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David Coco on Saturday, October 25, 2014 - 07:16 pm:

No accessories and no spare parts included. Marveled at the tires still holding air, the car is on BIG blocks of wood holding it just slightly off floor, so Non-Skid tires still look good. Found out today owner is negotiable, and well in range of discussion here.
I've laid the groundwork for something that's going to come back and bite me. I always talked up the other cars to my better half, having different and other makes, not early Fords. Now, after following you guys for a while, have the major desire for a T, and here's one in my lap. So, long and short of it, I can afford the car, but not the lawyer. Am exploring other avenues, but think someone else is going to get a nice car, not me.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Wayne Sheldon, Grass Valley, CA on Saturday, October 25, 2014 - 08:33 pm:

Everyone should have a model T! Gotta admit though, I tend to like non-Fords a bit more. I always had a Hupp 20 on my wish list, but do not think that will ever happen.
About 20 years ago, I was between running Ts, but I had a 1925 Studebaker and a 1915 Studebaker. The T club was doing something, and I was missing the joy of driving a model T anyway. I decided then that I never wanted to not have a running T again. Family needs caused me to sell the Studebakers. But I still have a couple running Ts.
I wish I could afford to get something like that '14!
Drive carefully, and enjoy, W2


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Scott Kramer on Saturday, October 25, 2014 - 08:36 pm:

David,
Years ago a friend in the old car club I belong to, was forced into early retirement ( he had enough years in to get a decent pension), but he liked to work.When he finally got used to being retired,he ended up in the hospital with lung cancer(he liked smoking as much as working).
A friend & I went to visit him in the hospital.
He gave both of us some advice,if there is anything in life that you want,go get it today,because you might not be here tomorrow.
I took his advice & bought my 1913 T touring.That was 27 years ago,& so far no regrets.
Go ahead & discuss it with your wife,buy the car & take her for a ride in it.Who knows she might enjoy it as much as you.At least with an antique car,the value will always be there & she will know where you will be.Tinkering in the garage.There are far worst hobbies to have.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David Coco on Saturday, October 25, 2014 - 08:56 pm:

Me being in the garage is not an issue...we have 12 early cars now..so I'm always there! And I've been doing this for 50 years this November. The problem is more of why do we need another car/project/storage/Ford/car...when we have what she considers "enough". Is there such a thing?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David Coco on Saturday, October 25, 2014 - 09:40 pm:

Me being in the garage is not an issue...we have 12 early cars now..so I'm always there! And I've been doing this for 50 years this November. The problem is more of why do we need another car/project/storage/Ford/car...when we have what she considers "enough". Is there such a thing?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bob Coiro on Saturday, October 25, 2014 - 11:05 pm:

-Most of my impressions of Model T pricing are gotten from five or so years of hanging out here on the MTFCA’s forum. -While, relatively speaking, that’s not a whole lot of time, there’s no other online source of information that compares. -Anyway, here’s a know-nothing newbie’s impression of Model T pricing, for what it’s worth.

-Brass cars command a much higher price than the steel or improved cars. Obviously. -The earlier brass cars are worth much more than the later brass cars and even between back-to-back model years, like 1911 and 1912, the 1911 car will command a significantly higher price than the ‘12.

-Paul Mikeska is right. -Any Model T manufactured before 1913 might as well be made of unobtainium, at least as far as non-millionaires are concerned, but in a world where a Ferrari recently changed hands for 34-million dollars—alright, never mind that; let me keep this down to Earth—in a collector car world where an unrestored ’68 Corvette fetched $800,000 at auction, any Ford Model T is a comparative bargain.

-But I digress (I just love when I get to say that).
-The 1913 Model T sits squarely in the no-man’s land between the prohibitively expensive and that which is within reasonable reach of a working man.

-The ’14, being the last of the cherrywood dashboard, square oil-lamp, acetylene headlamp cars, commands a significant price-premium over the following model year, but not so much as to be a real stumbling block. -If you can afford a 1915 Roadster or Touring at between $17,000 and $19,000, you can probably dig a little bit deeper and fork over an additional two or three grand for a really nice '14.

-And then there are the ‘15s and ‘16s, which look enough alike to be thought of as being in the same price range. -The 1915 model year made it into youngster’s end of the Horseless Carriage Club of America’s round number-bound category of Brass-Era Automobiles by the skin of its proverbial teeth. -This car is the cheapest way into that exclusive club. -For that reason, a good many ‘16s have been retrofitted with the two brass headlight rims and three brass-trimmed kerosene lanterns that turn those cars—cosmetically, at least—into 1915-model year Fords. -From what I’ve read in a number of places, that practice became widespread enough that a correctly appointed ’16 is now a genuine rarity, which, by rights, should make it at least as desirable as a ’15, but it hasn’t worked out that way.

-So, okay; if a nice-condition, 1914 Roadster or Touring is worth between $20,000 and $22,000 and a ’15 is worth between $17,000 and $19,000, then a 1916 should fetch between $15,000 and $16,000. -And maybe in 2015, when the 1915 model-year becomes an even century old, the price for that car will get a little bump.

-And as long as I've gone this far...
-The above pricing principle does not hold true for the "steel cars," all of which are worth about the same price, assuming identical body style (touring, roadster, etc.) and equal condition. -As far as daily-drivers are concerned, a fair steel car might run $5,000; a good one, $10,000 and a creampuff might fetch $13,000 (oh, and by the way, I'm not talking about show cars that win trophies at sanctioned Antique Automobile Club of America competitions. -Prices for those rolling works of art—whether brass or steel—are astronomical and you wouldn't dare drive one in traffic).

-The "improved cars" enjoy upgrades like balloon tires, geared-down steering and slightly better brakes. -In terms of price, they're worth about the same as the black cars, but look so similar to the Model A Ford that you almost might as well get one of those and enjoy its greater cruising speed and highway capability.

-Again, all of my above is just the scatter-brained musing of a know-nothing newbie, so do take it with a grain of salt.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Karl Gilchrist on Sunday, October 26, 2014 - 04:27 am:

Val As David said 35 mph is about it in the level
On a hill it slows down real quick.Even though the Hupp dates to the same time as the early T I really feel the Hupp is 1/2 a generation behind the T. In fact the Hupp is more like a Model N. The Hupp to me seems to have the wonderful looks of the really early horseless carriages but also has their lack of performance and fragility. I would hop in my T and travel 100 miles and expect to finish my journey, In the Hupp I would spend 99 of those miles wondering if I would get home. Having said that in 1910 a Hupp travelled 48,000 miles round the world suffering only one major breakdown. A broken rear axle in Japan repaired at the roadside by re-machining a passing rickshaws axle! I love them both but for useability the T has the Hupp licked- Karl


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Paul Mikeska, Denver CO on Sunday, October 26, 2014 - 05:42 am:

Bob Coiro,

"Again, all of my above is just the scatter-brained musing of a know-nothing newbie, so do take it with a grain of salt."

Not true. I may have been in the hobby for over 35 years but due to life and the choices that we all have to make with it I am just a casual T guy and would not want to be considered as any kind of an expert. I wish I had the command of the language to post more than the couple of sentence's I posted above. What you expressed actually is what I tried to say. I enjoy your posts and they cannot be dismissed as the musings of a "newbie."


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David Coco on Sunday, October 26, 2014 - 07:49 am:

I agree with Karl on the Hupp, I think it's a well built car, but it doesn't give one a warm fuzzy reliability feeling for some reason. They sure are cute, though, and pride of ownership has to count for something! Here's my Model 20...


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Rob Heyen on Sunday, October 26, 2014 - 07:57 am:

Bob C.,
I sent a PM (in case it goes to your spam folder).
Thanks, Rob


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ricks - Surf City on Sunday, October 26, 2014 - 10:49 am:

Promise wifey you will sell one or two cars to get the T. You can drive only one at a time, and you should make that the most enjoyable one.

Whatever you own, also owns you, and at the same level.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bill in Adelaida Calif on Sunday, October 26, 2014 - 11:39 am:

One of the customers where I work said years ago that his wife told him "either the Buick goes or I go" He now owns 3 old Buicks :-)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Jelf, Parkerfield KS on Sunday, October 26, 2014 - 12:20 pm:

I think Bob's comments are pretty much on the mark, but when it comes to those middle years of 1914, 1915, and 1916, I've seen lots of variations in price that go way over and way under those estimates. Influences there are condition, location, and "correctness". That last item comes into play when the seller and/or the buyer know about Model T's.

I'm going to digress a bit too. Several years ago, knowing a lot less about Model T's than I've learned since, I attended an auction where this car was being sold.






It was advertised as a 1914, and apparently nobody there, including me, knew any better. I didn't even notice the 11-23-15 casting date. When it came up for sale I let myself get into a bidding war with an old man from Florida. He had brought a trailer, so I guess he was determined to get it. I dropped out at fourteen grand, and I think it finally went to the old guy for fifteen. Since then I've learned a few things and I'm very grateful that old fellow was there to save me from myself. I paid under nine grand for my put-together 1915 with its body work already done, even if it was done forty years ago. That non-1914 I missed would have been a major money pit.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Val Soupios on Sunday, October 26, 2014 - 04:45 pm:

Thanks Karl. I may have the chance to pick up a Hupp and agree that they are a nice looking car but not as reliable as a T. The one I am looking at is an older restoration that needs to be redone entirely but it does run fairly well although it seems to have 1/2 the power of a T. Hupp 20 seems to be a bit of an overstatement.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Karl Gilchrist on Sunday, October 26, 2014 - 05:27 pm:

Val The "20" is an advertising puff they only produced 16.9 Horsepower -They were also advertised as reaching 50 mph and they will but only on a trailer behind a modern. Having said that they are just as reliable and perform just as well as most cars of that period and they are real lookers. As David said they represent great value for money as well.I wouldn't be without mine -Karl


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Karl Gilchrist on Sunday, October 26, 2014 - 05:34 pm:

David -when it comes to buying cars and my wife there is one guiding principal I use that is that " it is easier to ask for forgiveness than permission" I normally factor some jewellery into the purchase price to aid the forgiveness-Karl


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bill Elliott on Sunday, October 26, 2014 - 05:38 pm:

Wow, Steve, that "14" sure looks like my early '16 when I bought it fresh out of a barn in NW Ohio! Mine was cast 11/22/15 and was interestingly titled as a 1914 too. I had a time convincing my local DMV that it was in fact a 1916, even though it was made in 1915. I had to write out a letter explaining how Ford did his model year vs manufacture year and had it retitled as a 1916. BTW, if that car got 15K I guess mine is worth 25K! Anyone interested???


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Wayne Sheldon, Grass Valley, CA on Sunday, October 26, 2014 - 06:06 pm:

Karl G,
Now, THAT is a beautiful Hupp!
Drive carefully, and enjoy, W2


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David Coco on Sunday, October 26, 2014 - 06:22 pm:

Here's my take on Model T survival rate versus Hupmobile survival rate. 1909-10, there were 29,665 T's produced, roughly 6500 Hupps .....the T's were driven into the ground, the Hupps weren't as reliable, so they were put in storage, too cute to junk and not enough metal for the war efforts. I constantly find more Hupps that are out there, and believe there are, easily, 400 or more survivors from that two year run. I don't think there are near that many "real" early T's out there.

Working on finding a good home for the T, a few people have expressed interest from this forum but right now trying to keep it as local as possible.


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