Brought Another Project Home

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Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2014: Brought Another Project Home
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Greg Whaley, Georgetown Ontario Canada on Saturday, October 25, 2014 - 12:29 pm:

Just picked up a 1922 Touring. Local car, we are now the third owners.

Body wood and metal is in incredible shape. Wasn't looking for another project, but we all know how that goes :-)

Had to pull it out of the basement of house through a pair of french doors. Previous owner drove it in 13 years ago and put it on blocks.










Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Wayne Sheldon, Grass Valley, CA on Saturday, October 25, 2014 - 01:02 pm:

Nice find! Congratulations. You will need to properly adjust that handbrake however.
Drive carefully, and enjoy, W2


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Royce in Georgetown TX on Saturday, October 25, 2014 - 01:20 pm:

Wow. Looks like a good one. We don't see many 1922 Canadian cars around here!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Frank Harris from Long Beach & Big Bear on Saturday, October 25, 2014 - 01:53 pm:

Don't mess with it other than getting it to run well and stop safely. ;~)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Greg Whaley, Georgetown Ontario Canada on Saturday, October 25, 2014 - 02:51 pm:

That's exactly my plan Frank. It needs nothing done to the body - I don't think it has ever been apart.......


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hap Tucker in Sumter SC on Saturday, October 25, 2014 - 03:47 pm:

Greg,

Great looking Canadian touring! Can you find out anything about the history of the car? It would be great to know if it was restored at one point or if it was basically stored away and never restored. You commented you did not think it had been taken apart – and if that is the case – it would make a great time capsule for documenting things.

Compared to the somewhat incomplete information we have on the USA Model T production we have significantly less information about the Canadian Model T production. With the upholstery already removed, would you please take some photos of the front and rear seat construction? I suspect the front seat will be a metal seat frame construction and the rear seat will still be a wooden seat frame construction. But I would like to confirm that if possible one way or the other. You mentioned it was a 1922 and depending on the source, some say Ford of Canada introduced the one man top and slant windshield in 1920 while others say it was 1921. Did you base the year model of 1922 on the title, engine serial number, history of the car, some other information, or a combination of information? [Canadian serial numbers are listed at: http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/50893/55246.html?1210428134 -- it is listed so you can type it in yourself if you would prefer or just click on it. ]


From the photos it appears to me to be a low cowl touring but would you please confirm that I am seeing that correctly. And please confirm it is a wooden firewall.
I also suspect that someone along the way probably added a nickel radiator shell and nickel head lamp rims. Looking at the radiator shell it appears to be for a high radiator as the neck of the low radiator is just protruding through the top of the shell.

I’m hoping there is a known history of the car and that it is mostly original – which from your last posting sounds promising. I can see the unique top saddles that clamped the top bows rather than using a strap to hold them anchored securely when down like the USA cars. In addition to several different one man top bow versions that had slight differences the Canadian cars also had several different top rests from 1915 to 1927. I you see any numbers cast into the top rest holders on your car, I would like to capture them. And yes – any photos you could share (post or send – but you can send higher resolution copies than you can post on this forum).

Probably many more questions than most folks ask, and I apologize for that. But I am very interested in capturing more information about the Canadian produced cars. If you or anyone else would like a free copy of Keven Mowle’s article in the Sep-Oct 1988 “Vintage Ford” titled “Only in Canada – Eh?” please drop me an e-mail with “Send Canadian T article” or something similar in that title, and I will send that to you. If you click on my name, it brings up my profile and my e-mail address is the third line down. The club allows us to share those for non-commercial purposes to promote our club and our hobby. It has a lot of information about the 1920-22 Canadian open cars.

Again congratulations on your “new” T!

Respectfully submitted,

Hap l9l5 cut off


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Greg Whaley, Georgetown Ontario Canada on Saturday, October 25, 2014 - 04:21 pm:

Hi Hap,

Always happy to answer any questions :-)

Based on what the seller told me:

The car was bought new locally, an the original owner was in his nineties when the 2nd owner (who I bought it from) purchased it.

Car was driven in to the basement 13 years ago
by 2nd owners daughter, put up on blocks and sat until today. She was there today taking pictures as it left. She is going to dig up any pictures they have and send them to me.

The engine serial number/title is : C332557, which will put production date between Feb 28th and Mar 31 1922. The car still has engine pans installed on it.

Front seat frame is metal, rear is wood.

It is a low cowl with a wooden firewall. I plan on taking lots of pictures of the car once I get it out of the trailer and into the garage and begin the cleanup process.

Here is a quick picture of the firewall and floorboards




Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hap Tucker in Sumter SC on Saturday, October 25, 2014 - 05:23 pm:

Greg,

Thank you for the answers. I look forward to what you discover and what we can document. I sent you an e-mail with the "Only in Canada, Eh?" article.

And please keep an eye out for any body numbers etc. -- below is the photo of your right front floor board riser -- cropped and color adjusted:



Respectfully submitted,

Hap l9l5 cut off


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Greg Whaley, Georgetown Ontario Canada on Sunday, October 26, 2014 - 12:43 pm:

Hap,

I found body numbers on the drivers side floor riser:



The headlights have adjusting screws in different spots - the left side is at 12 o'clock and the right is at 9 o'clock:




Here is a picture at the interior wood/metal at the rear of the car......


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Richard Eagle Ida Fls on Sunday, October 26, 2014 - 12:56 pm:

Greg, what an incredible car. I'm very envious. After restoring several T's I'm trying to build a few that look like yours. How nice you found one that way.

Rich


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Greg Whaley, Georgetown Ontario Canada on Sunday, October 26, 2014 - 01:03 pm:

Thanks Richard. I am still amazed at the condition of the wood and metal. All the touring cars I have seen are usually rotted out completely at the back.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Greg Whaley, Georgetown Ontario Canada on Sunday, October 26, 2014 - 02:16 pm:

Still more pictures......bear with me guys, I am excited about this one :-)

#3 connecting rod cap:- there were no shims left on this one


A quick look up from the pan - it doesn't look too grungy.



My plan is to pull the engine out, get it on the stand and give it a once over - the band spring/nut is missing for the forward drum, so I want to make sure there is nothing floating around the pan.

Then I'll tackle the running gear - get the front end up to par and pull the rear and make sure to get rid of those pesky babbitt washers. Going to be a busy winter!
I am trying not to take too much apart - just want to make sure it runs well and stops......


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John McGinnis in San Jose area, CA. on Sunday, October 26, 2014 - 04:32 pm:

The windshield makes it look like a late '22 or did the Canadian use the '23 style windshield?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bud Holzschuh - Panama City, FL on Sunday, October 26, 2014 - 04:44 pm:

Greg

What is the small electrical device immediately below the terminal block. I don't recognize it.

Some sort of dropping resistor ?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Greg Whaley, Georgetown Ontario Canada on Sunday, October 26, 2014 - 04:48 pm:

John,still sorting things out on this car. I am having lots of fun looking things up!

Bud, I have no idea what it is....it does look like a resistor of some sort. I am going to follow the wiring and see where it leads


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David Chantrell - Adelaide, Australia on Sunday, October 26, 2014 - 05:12 pm:

The electrical device is like a resistor or something found on the 1922 Canadian starter motor cars. Seen it many times before. Usually they have been removed over the years and are normally not put back at restoration.

If my memory serves me correctly the later generator cut out renders it obsolete. I am not an electrical guy and have very little knowledge in this area, so hopefully one of our forum members will add the technical detail. Just to say it is a genuine part.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Wayne Sheldon, Grass Valley, CA on Sunday, October 26, 2014 - 05:38 pm:

A little tough to tell in the photos, but the one headlamp with the adjusting screw at the top does appear to be earlier. It looks like it may even not have the small flat area that the bulb socket is usually mounted into in most (later) lamps. I believe the true '15 headlamps were rounded all the way to the bulb socket. The bucket was slightly more bulbous around the middle also.
What is very confusing about the lamp bucket timeline is that it appears that some of the '17/'18 lamps also may have been more fully rounded and bulbous, although with the wire socket offset down lower.
I recently commented on another thread that a good study that should be made is the headlamp bucket timeline from early '15 through 1919. There were so many changes through just a few years. I know there was an article in the 'Vintage Ford' many years ago, but I can't find it and I think opinions have changed a bit since (based on what I recall reading and being told).
And, as always, Canadian cars may be different. I cannot tell for certain from the photo, but is the base of your lamp cut flat on both sides? Or wider and tapered? Thinking about the other thread that I commented on, I wonder if it could be a Canadian thing?
Great car! I love it.
Drive carefully, and enjoy, W2


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Greg Whaley, Georgetown Ontario Canada on Sunday, October 26, 2014 - 08:58 pm:

Hi Wayne,

I'll have to have a look at the headlights again tomorrow. I'll grab some more pictures as well


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Greg Whaley, Georgetown Ontario Canada on Sunday, October 26, 2014 - 08:59 pm:

Hi Wayne- I'll have a look at the headlamps tomorrow and report back the their shape, etc


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mike Garrison on Sunday, October 26, 2014 - 11:39 pm:

John McGinnis, I had the same question. My '22 touring has the older model windshield with the two man top. My car was built June 3 1922.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hap Tucker in Sumter SC on Monday, October 27, 2014 - 07:06 am:

John and Mike,

Bottom Line Up Front: Bruce (R.I.P.) shares that the 1923 slant windshield tourings were introduced starting in Sep 1922 followed by the slant windshield runabouts around Nov 1922 [ref page 308 Bruce’s book “Model T Ford.”] So we would suspect a USA car that was assembled with an engine serial number listed on the Jun 3, 1922 engine logs would likely be a straight windshield touring or roadster rather than a slant windshield.

Additional details:

Another difference between the USA and Canadian models is when items were introduced. As mentioned above, some sources say Ford of Canada introduced the slant windshield and one man tops in 1920 and others sources indicate 1921. But they all agree that by 1921 the slant windshield and one man top was in production in Canada.

Note also that for the Canadian 1920-1925 slant windshield both panes of glass are movable but for the USA slant windshield 1923-1925 only the upper pane of class is movable so the Canadian slant windshield assembly is a little different from the USA slant windshield assembly.

The straight windshield 1915-1922 USA or 1915-1919 Canadian will easily interchange with the slant windshield. The top will no longer fit as nicely -- but if you just needed a windshield – either will bolt on and keep the wind out of your face. For example, my cut off doesn’t have a top and without reworking the top irons to a roadster, a top will not fit the front seat only of a cut off touring. So I could put either windshield on my car and it would function ok. When practical, Ford usually made parts backwards compatible with the earlier Model T cars. In many cases they may look different -- but they often will fit and function.

We don’t know how much overlap in the USA there was when both the straight windshield 1922 tourings and the slant windshield tourings were both being manufactured. Ford normally would introduce the change to one assembly line and make sure they had it working well before they would introduce it to the other assembly lines. And in general the Highland Park Plant began producing the new models before the Branch Assembly plants located through out the world that used the USA supplied parts would begin producing the new style car. [Note in general Ford of Canada supplied most of the British Commonwealth with the exception of the Ireland and England. ]

But Bruce does share that the 1923 slant windshield tourings were introduced starting in Sep 1922 followed by the slant windshield runabouts around Nov 1922 [ref page 308 Bruce’s book “Model T Ford.”] So we would suspect a car that was assembled with an engine serial number listed on the Jun 3, 1922 engine logs.

For Mike -- You mentioned your car was built Jun 3, 1922. Many folks look up the engine number listed in Bruce McCalley's (R.I.P.) engine serial numbers and would like to say that is the date their car was assembled. For an engine that was assembled at the Highland Park plant in the morning or even afternoon shift and that was placed in a car that was also assembled at the Highland Park plant, it easily could be the same day. But clearly an engine assembled at 11:59 PM did not go into car before a minute passed and it was the next day. And how long it took to get the completed engines to the assembly line and installed in 1922 I do not know. Additionally in Calendar year 1922 Ford USA produced 1,232,209 Model Ts and TTs (including chassis). Of those only 115,755 or 0.094 percent were assembled at Highland Park. [Ref: page 464 McCalley]. So we know that approximately 90% of the USA cars were assembled at a different branch plant and therefore the engine serial number date would probably not be the date the car was assembled. And of course some engine numbers were sent to some assembly plants that assembled engines and they would stamp that number onto an engine they assembled days, weeks, or even later. And to add to the later date of assembly verses the date the engine was assembled, some engines were stockpiled sometimes. For example: from http://mtfca.com/encyclo/doc24.htm see the Mar 18, 1924 entry that states:

Letter from Chicago Branch:

"We hear stories that some salesmen are telling their customers to be sure and look at the motor number of any car when they buy in order to be sure they get a late motor number. These particular salesmen are just making a lot of trouble for themselves because at the new plant we have hundreds of motors that have been standing there for thirty days or more and will be going into the cars in the course of production. This means that all dealers will receive motor numbers from the Burnham plant that will be considerably lower in number than those motors received from the Chicago plant so just stop your salesmen making any remarks at all about motor numbers because in so doing they are going to make a lot of trouble for you when we start shipping from the new plant."
A.W.L. Gilpin
Branch Manager
P.S. In correspondence the old Ford plant in Chicago is referred to as the Chicago plant and the new plant is referred to as the Burnham plant because it is near the Burnham railroad yards.

Note at: http://www.mtfca.com/encyclo/sernos.htm Bruce states, “…some engines were assembled and numbered at branch assembly plants. Highland Park would ship a block of engine-number records to an assembly plant and these engines might be made weeks or months afterwards. Consequently, engine numbers can only be used to date the "engine" NOT the car.”

So if you have information that does date when the car was assembled and you know the engine serial number, I would be very interested in finding out more about those two dates. There is one case where we do know the assembly date of the engine and the car – for that story please see: http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/29/8925.html

Respectfully submitted,

Hap l9l5 cut off


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By James J. Lyons III - West Virginia on Monday, October 27, 2014 - 07:07 am:

Greg... Great find!! Now the truck will have some new company!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Greg Whaley, Georgetown Ontario Canada on Monday, October 27, 2014 - 06:12 pm:

Thanks James! Going to need a bigger garage soon. lol

Wayne - here are more pictures of the headlights...

Passenger side:







Drivers side:







I am not a professional photographer as you can see :-)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hap Tucker in Sumter SC on Monday, October 27, 2014 - 06:52 pm:

Greg,

Thanks for posting the additional photos! I'm hoping we can find a trend of some sort. At: http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/411944/488669.html?1414448163 they are also discussing when Ford of Canada may have gone from the focus screw above the socket to the side.

Respectfully submitted,

Hap l9l5 cut off


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Wayne Sheldon, Grass Valley, CA on Monday, October 27, 2014 - 08:25 pm:

Thank you Greg W!
It looks like it may be one of those Canadian things. Earlier (USA) style buckets on later (USA) style stems.
Hap, still looking for the Canadian change on adjusting screw position.
I find all of this so very interesting!
Drive carefully, and enjoy, W2


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dave Wells on Monday, October 27, 2014 - 08:28 pm:

Way to go Greg. You certainly surprised me. I'm looking forward to seeing that car in person next year. As for the slant windshield issue, I don't see a lot of Ts around here but when I do, they are almost always Canadian. So far, all the claimed but unconfirmed '20 and '21s I've seen have slant windshields. I will have to start checking these cars carefully. I have noticed that 1920 features such as one piece front spring mounts and oval gas tanks seem to have appeared on American and Canadian cars at the same time.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Greg Whaley, Georgetown Ontario Canada on Friday, October 31, 2014 - 06:46 pm:

Got the engine out today.

Lots of crud, going to dive into it tomorrow. Doesn't look too bad - no scoring, no ridges on the cylinders. Was trying to be careful with the firewall, but a piece still broke off under where the steering column mounts....

The engine splash pans were a bugger to get off - may years of crud made the bolts almost impossible to find.....







Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Greg Whaley, Georgetown Ontario Canada on Sunday, November 02, 2014 - 01:24 pm:

So I have been doing a little digging and have found pictures of the original owner, etc, but none yet of the car and him together. Turns out he lived about 20 minutes away from where I currently live.

Just got into contact with the grandson of the owner of the Dealership that sold the car......

They still have pictures of the dealership with cars sitting in front of it. He has gracefully offered to make copies of the photos for me.

This just keeps getting better !


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Scott Kramer on Sunday, November 02, 2014 - 11:23 pm:

Hi Greg,
Are you going to leave the car in the as found condition ? Other than the mechanical over haul.The reason I am asking is, I have some original upholstery put away in the garage,from a friends car.He gave it to me after he installed new seat material in his car.I am not sure if the front & rear seat material is there, or just part of it.But if you want it, you can have it.
Scott


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Fritz Hady Mt. Top,Pa. on Sunday, November 02, 2014 - 11:46 pm:

There is a 1913 speedster for sale in Pa. It looks like a show car,has monocle w/s really nice. My friend died and his wife wants to sell,if interested E-mail me and I will give you a phone number redseas@ptd.net. The car is located near Wilkes Barre,the wife is in Fla. Fritz


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Fritz Hady Mt. Top,Pa. on Sunday, November 02, 2014 - 11:48 pm:

There is a 1913 speedster for sale in Pa. It looks like a show car,has monocle w/s really nice. My friend died and his wife wants to sell,if interested E-mail me and I will give you a phone number redseas@ptd.net. The car is located near Wilkes Barre,the wife is in Fla. Fritz


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mike Garrison on Monday, November 03, 2014 - 08:24 am:

Hap, I totally understand what your saying about the engine serial number date not necessarily representing the day the car was assembled but up until now it's all I've got to go on. In the future I'll try to remember to clarify my engine is stamped with a June 3, 1922 date. Thank you for taking the time to post.

Greg, I want to congratulate you for a magnificent find and will be excited to see the old girl on the road.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Greg Whaley, Georgetown Ontario Canada on Wednesday, November 05, 2014 - 05:02 am:

Thanks guys.

Scott - I plan on keeping it as close to as - is condition as I can. I am going to do a mechanical overhaul to a make it reliable and safe. Then just have fun with it. Thanks for offering up the upholstery - sounds great! I'll touch base with you and I will come out and see you sometime.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Fred Dimock, Newfields NH, USA on Wednesday, November 05, 2014 - 05:35 am:

i love it when an almost original vehicle is discovered and the owner decides to not do a completed restoration.

You can't call it a barn find because it came out of a basement.
You might call it an under the toilet or under the bed find but that would be tacky so you should stick with under the house find


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Greg Whaley, Georgetown Ontario Canada on Wednesday, November 05, 2014 - 05:48 am:

Fred - I just call it a "lucky" find. Right place at the right time....:-)

My wife wants it ready for spring. She wants to drive this one.


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