Loose Radiator Fins

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Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2014: Loose Radiator Fins
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Harold Schwendeman - Sumner,WA on Thursday, October 30, 2014 - 05:10 pm:

My question concerning used radiators:

Hypothetical situation,....let's say you spot what appears to be a good but used radiator at a swap meet, yard sale, antique shop,...... whatever. The radiator looks good by all outward appearances.

Here's my question,.....as good as the rad looks, you're suspicious that it is for sale simply because it just doesn't cool well due to loose fins.

Is it possible to determine the "loose fin condition" by just a visual inspection, or, must you risk a pretty good chunk of $$$ by buying it and actually installing the radiator and finding out (the hard way) if it will actually cool the engine satisfactorily? In other words, at the swap meet, can you actually detect the loose fin condition by perhaps gently "probing" the core in several spots with something like a wooden match stick or something similar, and actually noticing that you can move the loose fin(s) up and down a bit, or, can the "loose fin condition" exist without being that obvious "VISUALLY"?

I don't know about others, but I always tend to be suspicious about why used radiators are for sale at swap meets or wherever.

Anybody,....???


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ron on Thursday, October 30, 2014 - 05:41 pm:

Was burned twice by what appeared to be mint, used Model A radiators. Was enough for me. I always go new now - last two T radiators have been Berg's - love them. Getting ready to order my third from him.

Used was just too much of a dice roll and I kept coming up snake eyes.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Harold Schwendeman - Sumner,WA on Thursday, October 30, 2014 - 06:12 pm:

Ron - Thanks for your post. That is exactly the reason for my question. I too believe that a brand new radiator is definitely the way to go. However, of my 4 Model "T's, only one has a brand new radiator, and to go that route with the other three,....well, I guess you can see why I'm always tempted to look at what APPEARS to be nice clean but used radiators at swap meets and such. Just wish there was a way to avoid the "dice roll" and "snake eyes" you mentioned Ron.

So, again, anybody know a foolproof way to determine the "REAL" condition of a used radiator at a swap meet?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By john kuehn on Thursday, October 30, 2014 - 06:50 pm:

There are those folks who 'luck out' buying a supposedly good radiator and it works out.

I wasn't one of those. I repaired 2 originals that looked OK only to find out they still got hot.

I finally bought a new Bergs for my 24 T Coupe and couldn't be happier.

I can drive my T all day and no problems.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ron Patterson-Nicholasville, Kentucky on Thursday, October 30, 2014 - 07:19 pm:

Harold
Perhaps your expectations are too high and the odds against you.
Original Model T radiators are at least 75+ years old and installed on cars that twisted the frame every which way when driven. That twisting action was transferred to everything attached to the frame, over the years the radiator fins and tubes became discontinuous and the radiator has long ago ceased to act as a heat exchanger.
In my view Don Lang made the point best; buy a new radiator, amortize the cost over ten years of driving without the aggravation of overheating problems and you get a good deal.
Just my view.
Ron the Coilman


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hal Davis-SE Georgia on Thursday, October 30, 2014 - 07:27 pm:

Some enterprising genius should come up with something you could spray or dip the radiator in that would fill the gap between the tubes and fins with a heat conducting material.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Harold Schwendeman - Sumner,WA on Thursday, October 30, 2014 - 07:51 pm:

Ron the Coilman - I think you're right Ron. I'd like to believe that there are those that just "part out" Model "T's that they believe "too far gone" to restore or even preserve, and I'd like to believe that at least once in awhile, a good used (read "useable") radiator would pop up at a swap meet once in awhile, but I'm betting that most are for sale because they just don't cool anymore, for the reasons you and others have explained Ron. But I still wonder if there's some way to determine if a used radiator will actually cool, without buying it and finding out "the hard way" that good as it may look, it's really only worth it's weight in scrap value!

Hal - Great idea! And if you could invent such a thing, I think you'd be on "Easy Street" for life!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hal Davis-SE Georgia on Thursday, October 30, 2014 - 08:00 pm:

I'm the wrong guy. I'm neither enterprising nor a genius.:-)

Just an opinion.....A good looking radiator at a swap meet probably won't cool. On the other hand, one with some bent fins may still cool, but was changed out by someone doing a restoration and changed it for aesthetic reasons.

No one has really answered you original question yet. I am not aware of any way to tell, but I would certainly be open minded to someone who does have a method to tell.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ron Patterson-Nicholasville, Kentucky on Thursday, October 30, 2014 - 08:06 pm:

It is technically possible, but it will cost many times more than a new radiator.
Quit trying to solve the economically unsolvable.
Ron the Coilman


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By keith g barrier on Thursday, October 30, 2014 - 08:45 pm:

Harold, I have gotten hold of a couple good honey comb radiators. I will only buy an old radiator at junk prices expecting the worse. That way you can at least salvage parts. A honey comb has much better cooling properties but you must remember also that it can't be rodded out. KGB


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John Semprez-Templeton, CA on Thursday, October 30, 2014 - 08:54 pm:

The method was invented and successfully used for many years. But no longer, I'm afraid.

My wife's uncle was a last of breed Radiator man who saved many old radiators by cleaning the fins and tubes then dipping the cores in molten solder. The process required him to use special wire brushes to clean off the old paint/dirt around the tubes and fins, then dipping the radiator into an acid /flux bath before the solder dip.

Today the process is to labor intensive, to toxic and no one knows how or cares to try.

When I tell people today that I've seen it done they look at me and think I'm a fool. Please feel free to pass your own judgement.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Harold Schwendeman - Sumner,WA on Thursday, October 30, 2014 - 08:55 pm:

Hal - Thanks for pointing out what I was about to say, that nobody has really answered my original question yet, but then in the meantime, Ron Patterson has pretty well summed it up with only two words I guess,,,,,"economically unsolvable"!

Thanks Ron - That's all I wanted to know! I still think that among all of the apparently worthless radiators we see for sale at swap meets, there must be a good one at least once in awhile, but apparently, there's no "economical" way to make that determination. Like Hal said, might be a radiator that was only changed out for "aesthetic reasons". Maybe if a guy wanted to foolishly "gamble" on a used radiator, he should buy a beat-up ugly one, huh?

About that "miracle spray", or "miracle dip" you mentioned Hal, I suppose that if some genius were to invent such a thing, Bergs or Brassworks would be using the stuff in building radiators, and they wouldn't have to charge $800.00 plus for a new radiator, huh?

Thanks guys,......harold


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Harold Schwendeman - Sumner,WA on Thursday, October 30, 2014 - 09:00 pm:

Hal - Thanks for pointing out what I was about to say, that nobody has really answered my original question yet, but then in the meantime, Ron Patterson has pretty well summed it up with only two words I guess,,,,,"economically unsolvable"!

Thanks Ron - That's all I wanted to know! I still think that among all of the apparently worthless radiators we see for sale at swap meets, there must be a good one at least once in awhile, but apparently, there's no "economical" way to make that determination. Like Hal said, might be a radiator that was only changed out for "aesthetic reasons". Maybe if a guy wanted to foolishly "gamble" on a used radiator, he should buy a beat-up ugly one, huh?

About that "miracle spray", or "miracle dip" you mentioned Hal, I suppose that if some genius were to invent such a thing, Bergs or Brassworks would be using the stuff in building radiators, and they wouldn't have to charge $800.00 plus for a new radiator, huh?

Thanks guys,......harold


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Norman T. Kling on Thursday, October 30, 2014 - 09:35 pm:

You can find out if the outside row of fins is loose with a flat nose plairs. Grab the fin and try to move it up and down. Of course, this test could actually loosen a fin! You can't do this to the inside row and I doubt the dipping in solder would work on the center row either, because you can't really reach them with a wire brush. The problem with loose fins is that the metal on the fin and around the tubes corrodes which insulates the fin from a good connection with the tube. Best investment to buy a new radiator or at least a new core. It can save you on future engine repairs caused by overheating, and will make touring much more enjoyable.
Norm


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ted Dumas on Thursday, October 30, 2014 - 11:23 pm:

A good radiator shop can recore a Model
T radiator for about $300 or so if your tanks and fittings are good.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Paul Mikeska, Denver CO on Thursday, October 30, 2014 - 11:54 pm:

For the sake of the hobby I really wish that someone would post the part number and makers of the cores that fit all the different years of Model T years so that those of us that don't live in never, never land could reference them to our local repair shops, I am not going to hold my breath till it happens. LOL.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By jeff cordes on Friday, October 31, 2014 - 12:04 am:

If a used radiator has a flat tube core you have a chance of it cooling, this has been my experience


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Harold Schwendeman - Sumner,WA on Friday, October 31, 2014 - 01:03 am:

Norm - Between you and Ron Patterson and the others, I am now convinced that a new radiator is the only way to go, $800.00 or not! And that's for a black one; brass costs over four figures! If I understand you right Norm, even if the fin feels tight, there can be corrosion that thermally insulates the fin from the tube, thus no heat transfer, even if the fin feels tight and you can't detect obvious movement. Got it! Thanks Norm, Ron, Hal and all others for a thread that has answered a question I've had for a long time,......harold


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Jelf, Parkerfield KS on Friday, October 31, 2014 - 03:11 am:

For a black era radiator, it's Berg's for me. But for brass, I chose a recore for two reasons. Believe it or not, money was the second one. The main reason for a recore was that the new brass radiators don't match the originals, and I wanted to keep the look of my original tank. The second reason was to save hundreds of bucks. The cost for mine was around $800, but that's considerably less than a new one would have cost.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hal Davis-SE Georgia on Friday, October 31, 2014 - 07:58 am:

Harold,

I fought a leaking overheating radiator for 3-4 years on my TT. Finally, an aggressive cleaning technique suggested on this site removed whatever it was that had some of the larger leaks plugged up. (I'm sure the technique would have worked fine if the base metal had been in good condition). It leaked like the proverbial sieve after that. I finally broke down and sent the $800 to Berg's and never looked back. Best $800 I ever spent. When we got her Touring, it cooled OK, but leaked. Tried repairing it a couple of times, but they still came back. Didn't fight that one for long. Went ahead and spent another $800. Learned my lesson the first time.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bud Holzschuh - Panama City, FL on Friday, October 31, 2014 - 09:36 am:

Harold

I think Norman did answer your question directly. Using a pair of needle nose or even tweezers you can detect loose fins. I tried it on my old radiator and was able to determine that many of the fins were loose. Of course it cooled poorly.

But where do you stop ? It could take hours to check every fin that's accessible and what if (example) 23 % are loose ? Will it cool adequately or not ?

If you can find one, a new core is the way to go. I couldn't and wound up buying a new radiator (oh, how it hurt !), but ... I no longer worry about the overheating and it was probably worth it! ;o)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Richard Gould on Friday, October 31, 2014 - 10:52 am:

I purchased a recored radiator with enough 12 parts to make a car. Judging from the receipts, the guy spent a lot of money on the recore, $350 when you could get a new one for about $500. Problem was the recored radiator would no longer fit on the car. The arms didn't line up with the frame and the radiator would not fit on the hood former, nor would the hood sit right. Since then, I've steered clear of recored radiators.
Honestly, I've had fairly good luck with used black era radiators. True, they didn't cool as well as new ones, but they were serviceable if I installed a good water pump. One with leaks near the bottom tank I was able to fix with Ultra Black sealant and ran it for years. My take on used radiators is that some perhaps most can be used on original engines, especially if you install a Climax water pump.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Willie K Cordes on Friday, October 31, 2014 - 11:21 am:

OH NO, Richard, you just opened up a large can of worms. (water pump)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John McGinnis in San Jose area, CA. on Friday, October 31, 2014 - 11:54 am:

I am running several very used radiators...both high and low black era types. Never checked the fins' tightness, just a lot of straightening. Have had no problems except chasing an occasional minor leak. No cooling issues.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ron on Friday, October 31, 2014 - 05:41 pm:

Lowest price I could find on recoring around here was about $600. No one wants to do it anymore. For that price, it seemed smarter to just go new. Have 3 As and 4 Ts. Have purchased 5 radiators to date and will end up buying #6 next spring. Expensive? Damn straight it has been. But none of these are going anywhere anytime soon (and hopefully, neither am I). In light of that, it was worth it to me to forego the constant fussing with band aids for a problem that was only going to get worse, not better.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By john kuehn on Friday, October 31, 2014 - 08:15 pm:

Clicks radiator in Dallas would do a black T radiator for 400.00. That was several months ago when I was considering putting a new core in my 1919 T radiator.

Its an original that looks pretty good but gets hot to quick.

Not buying another supposedly good radiator like I did before only to find it didn't cool good enough.

A new core at the very least this time around.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Verne Shirk on Saturday, November 01, 2014 - 09:29 am:

I can't really say that I know how the fins are attached to the tubes on a T radiator. I thought perhaps the fins are punched and the metal that is folded up just grabs the tubes and holds them there. Or are the tubes soldered to the tubes? If they were soldered, maybe even at just a few places, the other fins might be lose. The radiator on our '14 is an original and cools fine. We tour with it quite a bit. I have another '14 with a new radiator and you can just about bet on it getting hot. My thinking is that it is because of other issues not having to do with the radiator. So, back to the fins. The tubes/fins are some type of brass or copper alloy. It tends to corrode over time. This corrosion would act as an insulator to the tube/fin itself. If you have ever heated an old Model T nut on a bolt up so it is red hot, you will find that the nut is "red" hot and the bolt may still be "black". There is a gap between the two AND some corrosion (rust acting as an insulator). I'm guessing the radiator is the same way. Painting a core is like adding a film of insulation to the cooling process. It insulates the air from the fin/tube, just like the corrosion. The same goes for the inside, if there is a buildup of deposits it will affect heat transfer. Finally, some people use Water Wetter to make the liquid "stick" to the insides of the tubes. I'm thinking this would help the heat transfer process too. Now, how much each of these things can contribute to the cooling process would be something to study. (Perhaps my masters thesis in engineering!?!?)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Marvin Konrad on Saturday, November 01, 2014 - 08:31 pm:

Has anyone identified whether a water pump would help? Also, I've noticed variable thickness (i.e. 3-tubes deep on a salvaged unit I found, 4-tubes deep on my Dad's '26 TT, and 5-tubes deep + having a water pump on the '25), which adds to the question. All 'high' radiators. I sold the salvaged unit for $35 to help a fella who was looking to do a re-core. I know - More questions than answers....


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jim Thode Chehalis Washington on Saturday, November 01, 2014 - 10:45 pm:

Marvin,
Of course a water pump will help. With a good radiator a pump should not be needed but for a poor radiator many things would help to prevent over heating. Some things include:
More water flow
More air flow
Wetter water and/or less antifreeze
Colder weather
Cleaner block water passages
Cleaner radiator water passages
Less paint on the radiator core/fins

Jim


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Marvin Konrad on Sunday, November 02, 2014 - 11:01 am:

Thanks, Jim. 'Common Sense' has usually worked best for me. I've taken the approach to have everything as clean as possible, inside and out, so things work as they're supposed to. Yet, the overall capacity (# of vertical tubes) would also seem to also be a logical question about keeping things cool.??


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mark Gregush Portland Oregon on Sunday, November 02, 2014 - 03:00 pm:

My old low 4 row round tube no thermostat cools about the same with or without the Atlas water pump, maybe a little better with so I leave it on. :-) Some of the cooling depends on how you use your spark and how rich or lean you run.


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