What year is this block?

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Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2014: What year is this block?
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Daniel Kraft on Monday, November 03, 2014 - 02:06 am:


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Daniel Kraft on Monday, November 03, 2014 - 02:07 am:

I am almost positive it is 1067076


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Roger Karlsson, southern Sweden on Monday, November 03, 2014 - 02:38 am:

If it's 1,067,076 it's a january 1916 block as can bee seen in the encyclopedia section of this website: http://www.mtfca.com/encyclo/sernos.htm

But the number seems short for this length of number pad.. I think I can see a faint #2 under the "1" - it might be a restamp of a 2 million number block? Both would be similar non generator blocks. If it indeed is a non generator block with two valve covers, then you should have a casting date to the right of the serial number, that'll settle the year issue.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hap Tucker in Sumter SC on Monday, November 03, 2014 - 05:51 am:

I agree with Roger that it is likely the serial number on the block has been altered. (Thank you Roger for your excellent analysis on this and many other postings!)



Thank you Phil Mino for previously posting with the arrows etc. the casting dates. I only added that Phil was the poster.





The changes to the block will probably be needed. I.e. is it a generator block? Is it a one piece valve cover block? Does it have the boss on the back for the 1926 style bolts that hold the transmission cover ears?

But from the paint and new bolts it looks like it probably is running so that is a very important part!

Respectfully submitted,

Hap l9l5 cut off


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Erik Johnson on Monday, November 03, 2014 - 09:38 am:

Looks like there is a "4" at the end, making it:

10670764


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Daniel Kraft on Monday, November 03, 2014 - 10:08 am:

It does have a generator. I think I've been wrong about the serial number. Let me check on the valve covers. I do know that there are no transmission cover ears.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mike Walker, NW AR on Monday, November 03, 2014 - 10:16 am:

If it is a 1,670,xxx engine, it was built in October of 1924. That would make it a '25 model year engine. If that's so, it would have a single long valve cover.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Roger Karlsson, southern Sweden on Monday, November 03, 2014 - 10:16 am:

If it's a 10 million #, it's from october 1924 = 1925 model year. That would fit with a single valve cover and generator but no casting date or trans cover ear bolts.
If it is a late '24/early '25 style engine it would have come with the short front camshaft bearing and the four dip oil pan.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mike Walker, NW AR on Monday, November 03, 2014 - 10:17 am:

Oops -- I left out a zero. 10,670,xxx.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Jelf, Parkerfield KS on Monday, November 03, 2014 - 10:33 am:

We haven't seen a clearly detailed photo of the block's other side, but if it's cast to accommodate a generator it has to be 1919 or later. Either it was a replacement block stamped with the number of the block it replaced, or, more likely, you're right about being wrong. :-)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Daniel Kraft on Monday, November 03, 2014 - 10:43 am:

The other numbers you see are just shadows and paint. The only numbers are 1067076. There is however a 1920 casting date in the circle next to the water outlet. It also has a generator and a 2 piece valve cover. I put the valve covers on so I probably wouldn't use those to date the car. How can this be? Is this one of those replacement blocks?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Roger Karlsson, southern Sweden on Monday, November 03, 2014 - 10:59 am:

During the winter of 1921/22 the blocks were changed so a single valve cover was used. They're not interchangeable so your 1920 block is supposed to be used with two covers.

It was common to buy a new block if something happened to the engine. In northern climates frost cracked lots of blocks, but broken cranks and thrown rods are also known to crack blocks.. If most parts of the old engine was reusable they were used in the rebuild. Labor was cheaper than parts back then.

Do you have any 1916 era parts on the engine like a narrow nose pan or a low head?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Daniel Kraft on Monday, November 03, 2014 - 11:11 am:


This car was completely disassembled and stored for a rebuild that didn't hapen. I don't know what head and pan I have on it. I have some different pans and a starterless hogs head that came with the car though.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mike Walker, NW AR on Monday, November 03, 2014 - 06:45 pm:

That's a high head and wide-nosed crankcase. Both are correct for a 1920 engine. It's also a generator block with two valve covers, so it's probably a '20 engine. If the first digit in the engine number were a 4 instead of a 1, it would match the 1920 casting date.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hap Tucker in Sumter SC on Monday, November 03, 2014 - 07:51 pm:

Daniel,

If you look at the photos below that Dan Treace kindly posted on a previous thread at: http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/331880/383055.html?1377292633 you can easily see the difference in the two piece valve cover block and the single piece valve cover block.





When you installed the two valve covers did they each have a machined surface from the block on all four sides for the cover to fit against or did you place them over the one large open valve chamber?

Based on what has been shared so far I would suspect the block is a two valve chamber block since you said it has a 1920 casting date. The single valve cover did not enter production until Nov 1, 1921. From the same posting we borrowed the photo it has:
I believe the 10-18-21 refers to the date on the factory drawing of the new block with the one piece valve cover (ref: http://www.mtfca.com/encyclo/E.htm#eng2 ). The first new style engines with the one piece cover came out Nov 1, 1921 ref the engine logs listed on page 526 of his book and would also be in the engine serial number section of his CD. That would have been approximately 13 days from drawing to new part in production. From Nov 1, 1921 to Apr 3, 1922 both the old two piece and the new one piece valve chamber blocks were produced [same ref page 526 of Bruce McCalley's "Model T Ford." Then there were 5 months of overlap when new and old parts were still being produced. And of course the old style engines that were produced on Apr 2, 1922 would have been installed some time some place. And if the two piece engine block was shipped to a branch plant for assembly it could have been even later.

Assuming the casting date is correct – then you have a 1920 block. And since it appears to have a 1916 engine serial number it was likely a replacement block. As Roger shared does your car have any 1916ish parts? If not, then likely the engine block was used in a 1916 for a while and then later in your car. Many Ts have parts from various years. In some cases you can get a good feel for what the original year of the car was. In other cases – the parts are to varied and you don’t know which ones were original and which were replacements. And if it was built up from parts by an individual and not by Ford then it could be parts from almost all years. Which is ok also – it drives the same!

Respectfully submitted,

Hap l9l5 cut off


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