I thought I'd take a chance and post this here and see what any of you guys had to say about my drawing. This one is for the demountable wheel rim only, I'm also doing one for wire wheels and wood felloe non-demountable and truck tires but you guys are going to have to help me with that one, but first things first...demountable (since that's the ones on my car )
These part numbers are from the Lang's catalog...I don't have any Ford part number reference for these parts.
I'm not sure of the years this type would span, the vendor catalogs say 17-25 but I'm not sure, so any help there is greatly appreciated. Also on this drawing I've included the dust cover and the nut. Not sure they should be on this drawing, I'm thinking that it should be on the wheel to tire/rim assembly, because you can't really add them until you mount the tire onto the wheel.
One of the sizes I'm not sure about is the 21 x 4.50...is there a wood wheel configuration with that tire size? I'm going by the catalogs on this which list this size for a wood wheel.
You'll notice I've corrected the placement of the flap...as far as I know it goes on the rim (that's the way it is in my car anyway), not behind the bridge washer as it is in all the vendor catalogs.
I wanted to put a tire table on my drawing, but there just isn't enough space for it, there are just too many tires to list. 26-27 sizes would be on the wire wheel assembly and the early car sizes would be (I think) on the wood felloe non-demountable assembly.
Nice work Martin. You are right about the flap. It goes next to the rim. The only comment I have about your drawing is about the valve hole. I feel it should be a little closer to the lug on the left of your drawing, and that lug needs to be a little oval in the hole. excellent work.
Hope this helps.
Allan from down under.
Allan, thank you for your comments, the rims on my car are Kelsey Hayes...not sure if that makes a difference or not, but when I looked at my rims the valve hole strikes right between the lugs and a little off center so as to line up when the wheel is tightened down. I have seen some lugs that are squarish looking and not shaped like mine at all. Do you know what type rim those are? Also do you know any real Ford part numbers for these parts?
This image might help with the detail of the valve stem, if you are looking for that sort of detail.
Regards, John Page, Australia.
Martin, on our Canadian sourced cars, we only had the fixed lug rims in 1925. The square lugs come on our 21" split rims which take the straight sided tyres on the improved cars.
Allan from down under.
John it never hurts to have more detail. Although I'm only drawing assemblies. Not sure there is a need for a valve stem iso, but if there ever is, this picture will prove invaluable, thanks.
Allan, so there really is a 21 x 4.50 demountable for wood wheels? Hmmm...what year car were they for?
If I understand the question correctly, 21 X 4.50 demountables were available for sure on Improved cars ('26-'27), and from what I understand they could be had on some later '25 models as well. I am sure one of the guys can chime in on the exact months in 1925 that demountable balloon tires became available as either a factory or dealer option, or when they were discontinued in favor of wire wheels in 1927. Can use some help on that.
Martin, Thank you so much for taking the time to make such a drawing, the manuals,I have, don't go into such detail. I hope you continue with your quest for detail. Some day maybe the whole car can be detailed like this so we might know how things like nuts,bolts,washers,spacers, fittings, welting, nails, wood,and many other things actually should be assembled. The 21X4.50/wood spokes wheels, were optional on the 25's and were standard on the 26/27's. Wire wheels were optional on the 26's and I think standard on the 27's. Again, Thank you for taking the time to do this. jw
Here's a Hayes wheel and rim. This shows the location of the hole as as Allan mentioned.
Here are a couple of other details:
On Hayes rims the lug extends back past the bead.
Hayes felloes have a notch to accommodate that lug.
There are several designs of rim nut bushings, which I prefer to call felloe nuts. The one pictured above is a late one made for steel felloe wheels, which self centers. Most all felloe nuts do NOT self center, and have a felt washer in the felloe nut, hex on the later cars, and round on the early cars. To my knowledge, no one is making the correct parts for our cars.
I should add that it wasn't until March of 1924 that Kelsey wheels and rims were altered to interchange with Hayes, Firestone, and Motor Wheel (Cleveland). Hayes and Kelsey were two separate companies at that time. I don't recall when they merged
There's a lot of good information on wheels and rims on pages 689-699 in Bruce's encyclopedia. It includes a chart showing how to identify the various demountable rims.
The flap goes in the tire when used with clinchers not on the rim unless the rim is wire wheel. If you look at the cross section of a flap as supplied by the dealers they have a curve or "V" shape to them to support the tube in the tire, not to lay on the rim.
I've posted this before, but here is a video from Coker Tire showing how to install a flap:
The drawing is great but for accuracy's sake you should remove the tire flap from the drawing Martin. Ford never sold any Model T with a tire flap. They were not used then, and are not needed now either.
Mark, thanks for the Coker video on fitting a flap. You will notice that it is being put into a straight sided tyre like those used on 21" split rims for 1926 Ts. This is the correct application for a flap, which is used to protect the tube from chafing at the rim join and consequent rust when moisture gets in at the join. That tyre and flap assembly is simply dropped over the collapsed rim without any levering.
Clincher tyres do not use a flap, unless someone is worried about pinching the tube when fitting the tyre. Rather, a rim liner applied directly to the rim is better. It will not be displaced when levering a tyre onto the rim. It protects the tube from rust flakes, just as the thin liners sold for T wire wheels do.
Allan from down under.
Royce is correct that Ford never used a flap in the tires originally BUT tires we have now are not the same as they were, more so there are many brands of tires which have been produced and it appears often different manufacturers altered the size and shape of the cross section of the tire and their products produce issues which may effect what success one has using the tires.
The flap is not what Martin has drawn in his drawing that would be described as a "rust band". It is only wide enough to cover the bottom of the rim not the beads. A flap is about 4 inches wide and goes up either side of the tire nearly half way.
Rust bands quickly became available in the day because as Ford supplied the tire on the wheel after a time water which entered the rim rusted it and flakes were able to form next to the tube eventually resulting in a flat. By putting a band between the tube and rim it helped stop that problem.
Ford knowing of this problem galvanized the rims when they became demountable, something he could not do when they were wood felloe as before.
With the introduction of the split rim the tire flap which goes inside the tire between the tube and the tire straddling the gap of the sides of the tire it prevented the rim attacking the tube and any rust from getting into the tire tube area.
The flap also makes it a lot easier to mount the tire and avoid pinching the tube.
If you have a puncture on the road and have to repair the tire on the spot you will appreciate having a flap. Especially if it has been mounted an extended time and the rim is rusty.
Do you need them, maybe not but there are situations when they stop you from having a puncture. Some tires when they come out of the mould have a fine feather at the inside edge of the bead. If this is not removed it will cut into the tube and make a hole. Dunlop tires were famous for this and I have spent many hours using a Stanley knife trimming off the rubber edge and sand papering the edges smooth to stop the feather cutting the tube. These tires also had a bead section so wide a notch had to be cut into it to allow the valve stem to be able to fit between the beads on some rims.
I have just returned from a 1200 mile trip in my speedster. the tires on it were put on 30 plus years ago and have always held air. On the second morning of the tour one tire was flat. I put on the spare wire wheel and pumped up the offending one. Over a day it went down again, when checked out it had a tiny hole in the inside of the tube along with a frayed line about one inch long. The edge of the tire has fine rubber edges on it and without anything between the tube and the tire edge it had rubbed till it made a hole.
With a flap this would not be possible. I was able to source a flap as we passed through a town which has a vintage tire supplier luckily. The price of these seems to me to be way over the top as they cost as much as a tube and the one I got was an inferior one to previous ones I have. The Cocker flaps were dished as in the video this is just a flat thin rubber ring where the previous ones were thicker in the center and tapered to the edge. Seems the products are getting worse if that's possible.
OK, while we are talking tyres then some one please explain, This tyre is on a T going around Australia and has this problem happen.
This is the Wards Riverside tyre off my LHR wheel. I changed it this morning. You can see from pic 1 that it is worn so much the rubber is scuffing in the center as it reaches the canvas. But look at pic 2, and you will see it still has about 25% tread diametrically opposite. How can half a tyre wear out while the other half does not?
Ray, my old Ward's Riverside tires wore the same way. As with many things Model T, we have to think back to how things were in the old days. These skinny, high pressure tires were designed to cut through the mud and snow and the tread around the sides would have helped with that. Put them on today's flat, hard roads and now you have just the center of the tire carrying the entire load and thus the wear pattern you see. You could lower the pressure but of course, they would spin on the rim. I'm thinking and hoping that the new, softer tires will provide a little more contact. They seem to so far.
I think Ray is saying that the two pictures above are 180 degrees apart on the same tire.
If my interpretation is correct, I'm mystified as to how a tire could get such a wear pattern unless the rubber on one half of the tire was much softer than the other half.
Right Mark same tyre but 180 degrees around, got me beat
You must do this professionally. Wonderful drawing!
I was going to post this earlier but I keep getting 404 error messages;
Leaving flaps out with today's tires is wrong in my opinion. The new tires do not come together like the old tires and leave a gap that the tube gets caught in. Not only that but the 30 X 3 1/2 tubes that we have been getting from a major parts supplier are under sized and want to squeeze out of the tire as it is. How many tires today do you have to cut a notch in to have a place for the valve to go through? We now pay for the makers not making the tires right by having to buy the flaps. But I am glad we have tires to buy flaps for!
One answer to your problem could be that when new the tread on one side was a lot less than the other. One would not think to check or expect such to be the case.
All you may have done is wear the tread down to the point where the tread on one side has reached the bald area and the other side still has more depth left, as others have this problem also the tire mould may have been made wrong.
Wow, I've never seen that video and I don't have anything like that "flap" on my wheels. Mine are more like what Peter Kable is describing, it just fits over the rim but does not curl up into the bead channel, like that one in the video would if you install it like I've drawn it. We used to call these flaps, but I guess maybe I should relabel it as a rim band or rim liner which would be more accurate, it keeps the tire from chaffing against any rust on the rim, my tires are clinchers by the way and I use them anyway. Cant be over cautious when it comes to tires.
Royce, you're right this drawing reflects more what we're doing today rather than what Ford did. How about if I mark and list it as "optional"? That way you've got a choice.
Allan, my apologies you are indeed right the valve stem hole on my rims is offset like you said, I'll make that change and show it correctly. I'm also going to ghost in a wheel, so I can show the dust cover and the nut in this assembly.
This is disturbing news to hear that about Wards tires...I was thinking of getting one for my spare, because I'd never be able to find one to match what's on my car currently. They're Universal Drivers tread but they were made in Canada under the Goodyear label, which as I understand it hasn't been made since the late 50's or maybe early 60's.
I really like my tires because whatever they were formulated with, they haven't shown much wear at all and I drive around here a lot. There's some surface cracking, but nothing deep.
You know the one accessory I wish they'd make...Kelly Springfield overcoats...they were the tread part of a tire and fit over your tire if it was worn a bit or if you wanted something puncture resistant. They were held on by ties or lacings.
Mark, you have hit the nail on the head, twice!
Todays tyres are an inferior product, not fit for the purpose. To make things worse, the use of flaps, at greater expense than a tube, is deemed necessary to be able to run them.
Cutting a notch to accommodate the valve stem when fitting the old style clinchers is not necessary if both beads on the tyre are fitted at the same time. The difficulty comes when one side is fitted first and it cannot be held in the bead on the rim while the next side is levered on. Cutting the notch is a fitter problem.
Hope this helps.
Allan from down under.
Speaking of flaps see my new post;
I routinely wear tires bald with no flats and no flaps. Why don't I ever have flats? Because I keep the tire pressure at the proper level.
The tires on my '17 were 50 year old Riversides that never had flaps. I re - used the tubes, they were perfect, one of which was red, but all had the small diameter metal valve stems.
Flaps take money out of your pocket. Don't do anything else.
Ok, made a few changes here. I checked my wheels (build spec book) and the liners on my rims are 3" wide...didn't see any of these in the vendors books, all the liners they're selling are only 1" wide. Not sure how that would keep the tube from chaffing on the rim being that slim, it just seems to me that it should be almost as wide as the rim itself to work properly. I guess I'll have to go to those flaps in the future if I ever have one of my liners tear or something.
I've already decided that I'm going to have to draw a couple more drawings than I had planned originally.
If you've got any pictures of other wheel/tire configurations please either send them to me or post them here and I'll pick them up.
Is there a difference between the round wood felloe and the square felloe in the way the tire fits up? Also interested in that 21 x 4.50 car demountable (probably nothing is really different with the exception of flaps and tire design, but just in case I thought I'd ask). Are any of the 21x4.50's metal stems or are they all rubber stems?
Martin, the 1" wide rim liner goes in the well of the 21" T wire wheels on the improved cars. Some of these have a few rough spots left by the welding of the spokes, and the usual rust problems.
There is no 3" wide rim liner. I make my own from the outside diameter of a 13" car tube. If these are too hard to come by, another poster suggested bicycle tubes for the same purpose. They have two advantages over those expensive flaps. They are free at your local tyre retailer/ wrecking yard from their trash bin, or at least much cheaper if you buy new bicycle tubes. And there is no way they can get out of place when you are levering a tyre on.
Allan from down under.
The only thing I can think of to cause a tire to wear on one side and not 180* from the other would be a panic stop type skid. Did you ever have to slam on the brakes and skid the tires? The left tire may have the brake set a little tighter causing it to skid while the right side is set light.
Allan, I was thinking just that today concerning the 1" rim liner would be for that channel in the wire wheels, it's about all they'd fit nicely into. I looked all over the vendor's sites and didn't find a 3" rim liner, funny, they were rather common 36 years ago or so when I got mine, and as I remember they weren't all that expensive either.
If a person uses those 1" liner on their wire wheels, do they also use those flaps as well above the bridge washer? Got to know for my next drawing, tackling the 26-27 cars wheel.
On the 1925 21" demountable for cars, it's not a split rim right? The split rim is for trucks only right?
Martin, the 21" rim used on wooden spoked T wheels is a split rim. The rim is split so it can be collapsed to allow the tyre and flap assembly to be dropped over the rim, before the rim is spread again and the latch hooked up. Some trucks had split rims also.
You may be confusing split rims with lock ring types. On these the steel felloe is continuous. It has a flat bed over which the tube and flap assembly is dropped. Here the tyre is held on by a lock ring, which is split so it will spring on over a lip in the felloe to make the outside edge of the rim. Some of these had a continuous ring and a split lockring, both of which must seat properly to be safe. These are the dangerous ones.
Tyre fitters used a special cage in which these were aired up, just in case the lockrings were not in place securely. Without the cage, the things could explode, sometimes with fatal results.
Both these applications correctly use a flap. Both allow water into the tyre/rim assembly, causing rust problems. Split rims require a flap to protect the tube at the join.
There is no need for a flap in 21" T wire wheels, just as there is no need in 23" clinchers.
Hope this helps.
Allan from down under.
You will have to stop locking up your brakes while racing...LOL!!
Tires wear on one side more than the other if the wheel is bent or out of round. I had a Firestone non skid 30X 3 tire wear out that way during the 2013 Texas T party. The wheel was way out of round after going over a railroad track (I think). No flap, and I reused the tube again, which has seen at least two other tires wear out over the past 15 years.
Link to changing the tire with the help of Julius and John:
Tubes get pinched when people are not careful installing the tire. Flaps don't help anything, you can easily pinch a tube with a flap if you insert the tire tool improperly.
Peter, lets correct some thing here, who was the person driving my car when the burn outs were taking place and who was the one lifting the rear wheel off the ground on corners.
Royce, your 15 is sure pretty, always liked the 15 with all that nice looking brass on them. I have more brass on my car than a 22 is supposed to have and I don't even mind polishing it now and then, but I wouldn't trade my cars demountables for anything seeing what you had to go though to change a tire on the road. Don't '15's have a different size on the rear than on the front? So, do you carry a spare of each? My carrier has space for two, but they're both the same size, I figure if one is good then two has just got to be better.
Allan, Your explanation is great but do you have any pictures of this 21" split rim for wood wheels? I'll just bet that where ever the locking mechanism is its 180º opposed to the valve stem hole right? This is going to be a tuffy, gonna have to cogitate pon this some seemingly.
I don't know what type of brakes Ray Green has, but I would not think slamming on original Ford brakes would cause a flat spot on the tire. However if he is using either parking brake or auxiliary brakes, it is possible to have a drum out of round which would cause the brake to lock up in the same position on each application. That would cause a lot of wear on one part of the tire. Otherwise, it could be a manufacturing defect.
Martin, I just checked a rim for you. With the valve stem hole at 12 o'clock, the split in the rim is not quite at 1 o'clock! To make things harder for you, Canadian split rims have a different latching mechanism and a different method of opening and closing the split rim.
I will get photos for you later today.
Allan from down under.
I think Peter Kables answer is the best cause and for those who have see me drive I dont use brakes as I dont want to stop when on the open road, I only have old standard brakes on my car and I think they could be brand new. At 40mph brakes wont help you any way
My comment to Ray was a joke. When watching cars race these days you always see them flat spotting tyres with heavy braking. I have driven Ray's '13 at his daughters wedding and it is a very nice and quick car. Ray, I seem to remember it was you driving when we were trying to remove the jammed left wheel off it's taper. The same wheel that we have never found that piece of rubber that departed the tube when we repaired a flat and caused temporary deafness. LOL !!
Peter, After the explosion I can not remember who was driving but I am sure it was you, come out next week and I will show you how to lift a track on a Tank at high speed, its great when you land...I sure you were driving... Ray
Yes I carry one spare of each size. It takes just a couple minutes to change a flat. Remember, the demountable rim only delays the event of replacing a tire on the rim in exactly the same manner. It is thus less work overall to change a tire on my car than it is to change one on a demountable rim car. I don't have to take the rim off or install it.
Picture of the Jack Daron tire carrier:
Todays tires require flaps. They didn't used to. After I bought a new set of New Zealand Firestones, is when my troubles started. Three flats in a row on the same tour, all because of the new style tires wearing at the tubes. Every since then, I've used flaps, and haven't had a single flat. I don't like them, but until the tire companies start making tires correctly, I'll continue using them.
Royce: By Jove that is a beautiful car! It really shows off how skinny early spokes were!
Royce, Chris is right, that is one really beautiful car...you wouldn't happen to have a few good close in pictures of your wheels would you (front and rear)? I haven't done the fronts on any cars nor the wood felloe wheels or the tire assembly for 1915 yet. What is the span of this arrangement in model years? I know there is a square and round felloe, yours look round from here. They separate in halves right? What size are the tennons on your spokes? How does the rim fit onto the wheel? Some sort of rivet? Do they slip on or do you have to press them on? Those last two questions are just my own curiosity.
The felloes are made from two pieces, each a half circle. The rim is heated to expand it, the felloes are dropped in place, then the felloes are riveted to the rim, then the spokes are pressed in all at once. The spokes are a tear drop contour, rounded towards the axle and pointed toward the hubcap.
Close up of a new front wheel done by Stutzmann ($185):
Thanks Royce, these will help immensely in understanding how these wheels go together.