Berg's or Brassworks rad, (again).

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Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2014: Berg's or Brassworks rad, (again).
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dave Wells on Sunday, November 09, 2014 - 08:42 pm:

This is more of a need for an update than anything else as I have read past comparisons of both makes. I read threads that date back to 2010 where some folks complained about leaking and fitment issues with brassworks and inlets on Berg's that were too short to use the correct red hoses. I also heard something about Berg's not having the visible support bars as shown in the pic below. Their site shows the back of the rad only and the bar appears to be there. I might be able to live with incorrect tanks hidden under the hood but, the visible support bar has to look fairly correct on the front of the car. Just wondering if all the issues were solved with both brands. I just can't decide.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dan Treace, North FL on Sunday, November 09, 2014 - 08:54 pm:

The Berg's display at Hershey, the T black radiators had the lower support bar. Call Berg's to confirm, but they were on the ones on display.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mike Walker, NW AR on Sunday, November 09, 2014 - 09:08 pm:

Berg's used to make their radiators without the support bar, but a couple of years ago they added them due to requests from Model T'ers.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dave Wells on Sunday, November 09, 2014 - 09:51 pm:

Thanks guys and great display pic that shows the support bar. I'm guessing the short inlet problem was addressed as well? Sounds like Berg's might be the way to go. If nobody here knows, I will give them a call.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steven Thum on Sunday, November 09, 2014 - 10:10 pm:

The last Berg's that I got had a upper hose come with it as it did take a longer hose. Having worked with Berg's radiators and owning a Brasswork's. Unless Brassworks has upped their quality in the last year, the quality is better in a Berg's

Just my opinion


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ron on Sunday, November 09, 2014 - 11:02 pm:

Have purchased three radiators in the last three years - one Brassworks and two Berg's. Am getting ready to purchase my third Berg's. That should say volumes.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Jelf, Parkerfield KS on Sunday, November 09, 2014 - 11:13 pm:


On the way home from Iola in July I stopped at Gery Bergbower's and picked up a new radiator. As you can see here, it has the bar.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Jelf, Parkerfield KS on Sunday, November 09, 2014 - 11:23 pm:

Here's a front view:


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dave Wells on Monday, November 10, 2014 - 08:32 am:

Ok, I can see the bar there. You can download clear pictures from the Berg's site and it shows a pronounced lip on the inlet pipe that I don't see on Steve's rad above. The inlet might be a bit longer too. It sounds like Berg's is listening to Model T owners and making occasional improvements. I like my car as correct as possible but, my car is a driver. I drive it a lot. It never overheats but, the various leaks get to be a pain after a while. I need a good rad that can stand up to vibration and lots of use. I'm going to choose the Berg's. Thanks for all the help.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bob Jablonski on Monday, November 10, 2014 - 09:50 am:

Dave:

My new Brassworks radiator dates back to 1999... two years ago the solder started to breakaway from the top tank side supports, thru use & my own neglect leaks started at a few tubes. Lucky to have a radiator shop in town that actually fixes instead of replacing. I understand my radiator was made before the "new" ownership took over. The rad tech commented on the positive quality of manufacture. I'm sure it wasn't BS.

..... a different story on present day manufactured units ??? Sure to have feedback.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John Semprez-Templeton, CA on Monday, November 10, 2014 - 11:03 am:

I had the opportunity to discuss the "issues" with Lee at Brassworks a few years ago. His comments were insightful and sincere in my opinion.

He pointed out that his radiators are a faithful reproduction of the original Ford designs, built from the Ford drawings, and as such he builds a radiator that is as perfect to the original as we can get... including it's basic design limitations. I asked him what he would do to improve Fords design if that was possible, and without hesitation he said he would incorporate more bracing...but he can't because his product would no longer meet the expectations of the purists who demand a perfect, as built, reproduction. Sort of a "catch 22" for Lee.

Asked what we as the users of his product could do to ensure the most service, his opinion was that many service problems are caused by mounting and attachment problems. A few he mentioned were mounting springs that are too tight (or non existent), frames that are sagging (spread) and hoses that are too stiff (not as Ford used).

So I guess the choice comes down to; authentic reproduction based on a 100+ year old design, or a facsimile that incorporates changes that were never used by Ford?

It would seem to me that both products have their place in this hobby, but understanding the differences is important when making the choice.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David Dewey, N. California on Monday, November 10, 2014 - 01:58 pm:

I have compared original top tanks and Brassworks' top tanks, and in the hood mounting area, they are NOT the same, close but not the same. IMHO, this will effect hood alignment and possibly create wear points. Also, the Brassworks radiator do not contain the riveted & soldered inner brace at the top sides, and at the mounting flange.
But, this is just my opinion, your mileage may vary.
BTW, I have a brand new, but over 10 years old Brassworks radiator for my '16, and the neck has vertical cracks in it. I think this is a manufacturing flaw, but since I don't have paperwork, and threw out the shipping box, they won't cover it. It still has most of the red plastic plugs in the openings, some of them disintegrated while sitting in the garage (hey, they're only shipping plugs!).


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David Dewey, N. California on Monday, November 10, 2014 - 02:00 pm:

I have compared original top tanks and Brassworks' top tanks, and in the hood mounting area, they are NOT the same, close but not the same. IMHO, this will effect hood alignment and possibly create wear points. Also, the Brassworks radiator do not contain the riveted & soldered inner brace at the top sides, and at the mounting flange.
But, this is just my opinion, your mileage may vary.
BTW, I have a brand new, but over 10 years old Brassworks radiator for my '16, and the neck has vertical cracks in it. I think this is a manufacturing flaw, but since I don't have paperwork, and threw out the shipping box, they won't cover it. It still has most of the red plastic plugs in the openings, some of them disintegrated while sitting in the garage (hey, they're only shipping plugs!).


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By The Brassworks on Thursday, November 13, 2014 - 05:21 pm:

If there are any questions about radiator construction "under new management" please call directly. I've been the new management for over eight years now and I am happy to discuss how radiators were built in their production year and how radiators are built today.

Lee
805-239-2501


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dave Wells on Thursday, November 13, 2014 - 05:50 pm:

Thanks for posting Lee. I always like dealing with a supplier who has interest and concern for what customers have to say on the internet. I will be buying a new rad before spring from either you or Berg's. I still haven't totally decided. I certainly prefer something fairly authentic looking (yours) but, I am worried about durability. Vibration on a Model T can take it's toll as well as the completely unmaintained roads in my neglected city.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mike Vaughn on Thursday, November 13, 2014 - 05:53 pm:

I have 4 Brassworks radiators in my cars my oldest is about 12 years old and the newest is about 2 years old, they all have been a great fit and provided quality care free service. I have always used a 50/50 mix and I do drive my cars a lot. I have never had a problem with any of the new radiators. I have also installed a couple of Bergs radiators in cars for other people, they too are a quality product.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By JohnCodman on Thursday, November 13, 2014 - 08:37 pm:

My '27 T would overheat in three miles with it's original radiator. Berg's told me that if it overheated with their radiator, they would refund my money. I still have their radiator - they still have my money. 'nuff said?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David Dewey, N. California on Friday, November 14, 2014 - 12:58 am:

Well, I will admit my "new" radiator is about 12 years old, and the last time I was closely comparing parts was about 9 years ago, so things could be different now, with new management. (although my radiator neck complaint was made about 4 years ago when I noticed the cracks.
Yes, my restoration is taking far longer than I like or had anticipated!
cracked neck


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By The Brassworks on Friday, November 14, 2014 - 01:47 pm:

This type of crack is referred to as a “season crack.” They are not new development. In fact the term was first coined in a German technical paper in 1906. Season cracks can be found on drawn, rolled spun, forged and cast brass.

What is frustrating about a season crack is that the metal appears sound with good mechanical properties at the time of manufacture but the crack develops afterward and without an easily identifiable cause. Possible causes include internal stresses, surface corrosion, uniformity of metal density, temperature variation and even zinc content of the brass.

The necks are spun the same way necks were spun 100 years ago by one of the few remaining spinners in the US. I will discuss the spinning process with them and the material composition with our metal suppliers.

I am not sure we can prevent them from occurring entirely but I will do everything I can to reduce the likelihood of a season crack through material or process.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mike Zahorik on Friday, November 14, 2014 - 02:09 pm:

I have a Brass Works radiator in my '26. It is head and shoulders better than the old radiator I had. I've had it for more than 3 years and the car has about 15,000 miles on it since the change. I suspect that a Berg's unit would also be good. I've had two occasions to call Lee, not about issues with my radiator, but how to keep it in shape and different coolants to use in it. Lee seems very knowledgeable and is very helpful. You could not go wrong with a Brass Works radiator.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David Dewey, N. California on Friday, November 14, 2014 - 04:19 pm:

I'm not a metallurgist, although I do have a degree in Industrial Arts. My understanding is these are cause by stresses in the brass from the spinning process, and not having the piece "normalize" after being spun (heating the object to the annealing point). In Nickel plated brass spun parts, the plating process is suspected of being part of the cause. I know it is nearly impossible to find a Dodge Brothers headlight trim ring that isn't cracked in many places around the rolled inner edge.
My radiator is an example that hasn't been on a car, no heating, no vibrating, it's been leaning against the wall in my garage, awaiting the day when I finally put the car together!
Unfortunately, to replace it will require taking the top tank apart. AUGH!!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ron on Friday, November 14, 2014 - 05:36 pm:

John Codman - not surprised by that offer at all. Berg's stands behind their work.

After I ordered my second radiator from Berg's, Gery mentioned that he and his family would be up in New England on vacation. He offered to load my order up in his car and meet me somewhere to save me shipping costs. A little over a month ago, I got a call one Saturday evening from Gery, saying he was in Massachusetts. He was about an hour away from my house. Two hours later, I was pulling back into my driveway with my BEAUTIFUL new radiator. Did he have to make that offer? Not at all - he could have said nothing about his vacation, just shipped the radiator and saved himself the inconvenience of lugging it halfway across the country. But I greatly appreciate the fact that he did and valued me enough as a customer to try and save me some money on a MAJOR investment. Quality product AND sincere, unparalleled customer service - winning combination.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bill Rigdon on Saturday, November 15, 2014 - 02:07 pm:

At the Richmond Centennial I had the opportunity to stop and visit with the Bergbower's at their display. They were such straightforward and knowledgeable people I bought one of their radiators on the spot. I now live in S. Arizona and I can tour (and have) our little town with passengers on a 110 degree day with no overheating. Good radiator.

Ajo Bill


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bob Jablonski on Saturday, November 15, 2014 - 06:39 pm:

I had no other issue with my Brassworks radiator other than the top tank side supports breaking loose from their solder...... and my laziness in having properly repaired

Bob J.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By R. S. Cruickshank on Sunday, November 16, 2014 - 09:59 pm:

People can compare design of new vs old but the truth is the material used in the new Brass Works radiator has to be thinner than the original. Just thump the tanks (empty) and you will see what I mean. That is why when the wings cap with a motor meter will eventually cause solder leaks.I experienced this twice until I removed the wings and use a dog bone. The wings were too heavy and the wind resistance caused vibrations and stress on what I believe thinner brass. Not so with my original 15 radiator.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Jelf, Parkerfield KS on Monday, November 17, 2014 - 02:24 am:

IF the brass is thinner on the new ones that's another reason to recore rather than replace.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ken Kopsky, Lytle TX on Monday, November 17, 2014 - 08:29 am:

Did you measure the thickness? You can't tell how thick a drum skin is by thumping it. The amount of tension (tightness) determines the sound.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ken Kopsky, Lytle TX on Monday, November 17, 2014 - 08:33 am:

Not to mention interior corrosion or debris build-up on metal.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Jelf, Parkerfield KS on Monday, November 17, 2014 - 10:29 am:

There's a homework assignment for anybody who has both an original and a new brass radiator, and the necessary measuring tools: find out if there's any difference, and if so, how much.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By The Brassworks on Wednesday, November 19, 2014 - 01:31 pm:

If you have questions you can ask us directly

OEM and Brassworks Model T


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Jelf, Parkerfield KS on Wednesday, November 19, 2014 - 05:36 pm:

Excellent! Another old wife's tail laid to rest. I hear the rest of the old wife is OK. Thanks.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Rick J. Gunter on Thursday, November 20, 2014 - 04:40 pm:

Now I have a follow-up question: Where does one get a micrometer with the big round dial like that?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Andrew Benoit on Thursday, November 20, 2014 - 04:51 pm:

Those are dial calipers.

http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_noss_2/183-8611543-6324165?url=search-alias%3D aps&field-keywords=dial%20calipers


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David Dewey, N. California on Friday, November 28, 2014 - 04:37 pm:

Update:
Lee has contacted me directly, and has generously offered to replace my radiator's neck, AND add the reinforcing rivets to both bottom & top, which are now used in regular production. Considering this radiator was made before he was in charge, it is most generous, AND shows that he has upgraded his product too. He would like to know why some necks crack too, just like the rest of us.
Lee sounds like he is really interested in producing a quality product, and wants to stand behind it (out of the way of the fan, of course!) :-)
Why is it I always try to find something funny to say--I still can't get a job as a stand-up comic (the audience always tells me to "SIT DOWN!").

Replacing my Radiator's neck isn't easy, as it has the soldered and riveted version (correct for the early '16 model), and I am most pleased that he is offering to add the reinforcement rivets while he's in there--this radiator will out live me, if I don't damage it somehow!
So, two "Thumbs Up" from me!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dave Wells on Friday, November 28, 2014 - 08:15 pm:

That's great news David. Yes it seems that Lee is committed to putting Brassworks rads at the top of the heap and your posting has helped me with my final decision. I've decided to skip the Berg's and go with a Brassworks rad. Even though my black car has a rad shell and the hood is mostly closed, I just know it will bug me forever to have a rad that looks very much aftermarket. It sounds like Brassworks is making them right and I thought their two year warranty was pretty generous for an item like this. And whatever the motives, I like that Lee considers us important to set up an account here and post. It all speaks to likely good service after the sale. My old rad is now removed and sold. I will be getting a new Brassworks rad before spring.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ron on Friday, November 28, 2014 - 08:42 pm:

Interesting take.


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