What year? Rampant confusion.

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Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2014: What year? Rampant confusion.
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Jelf, Parkerfield KS on Tuesday, November 11, 2014 - 03:50 pm:

One of the guys on Facebook posted a picture of a touring that was captioned as 1914 or 1915, and wondered if maybe it was a 1912. Well, it was definitely not a 1915. But I'm not up on all the yearly features of the earlier brass cars, so I went looking online. Even in the MTFCA picture gallery, I found cars of any given year with different front fenders, different rear fenders, and other mixed features. I lay some of this to confusion between model years and calendar years. But the variety of features shown on cars supposedly of a particular year leads me to ask: were there really that many mid-year changes during the brass era?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Tony Bowker on Tuesday, November 11, 2014 - 05:03 pm:

It is generally accepted that the year of a model t is defined by Bruce McCalleys Encyclopedia which is available on this site. I would not use random pictures from owners. Some may disagree with Bruce but his research was very through.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Thomas Mullin on Tuesday, November 11, 2014 - 05:13 pm:

Of course over a hundred years or so, many cars become a bit muddeled as parts are replaced. And, then, there are the Torpedoes which were a bit different from the tourings and runabouts.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bob Coiro on Tuesday, November 11, 2014 - 07:31 pm:

Here's some real easy to spot stuff, at least on folding-top 4-seaters* (Touring Body).


If it has no front doors, it's a 1912 or earlier.

If it has a wooden dashboard, front doors and long, brass windshield braces leading to the bottom of the radiator, it's a 1912 (The front doors are removable).

If it has a wooden dash and the bottoms of the doors are square cut instead of rounded off, it's a 1913.

If it has a wooden dash and rounded off door bottoms, but doesn't have long, brass windshield braces leading to the bottom of the radiator, it's a 1914.

If it has a stamped, metal cowl instead of a wooden dash, a brass radiator and brass trimmed lamps, it's a 1915 (or a later car retrofitted to look like a 1915).

If it has a stamped, metal cowl instead of a wooden dash, a brass radiator and plain, black lamps, it's a 1916.

If it has a plain, black radiator, it's a 1917 or later.

*A 4-seater is a 5-seater if your rear passengers are either children or real skinny.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Derek Kiefer - Mantorville, MN on Tuesday, November 11, 2014 - 07:56 pm:

I looked at the picture, and it's definitely a 1914. I don't see any feature on it that's not 1914.

It has the non-billed front fenders that were used through most of the 1914 model year. Later 14s were similar to 15 fenders.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Royce in Georgetown TX on Wednesday, November 12, 2014 - 05:35 am:

The picture shows a typical 1914 touring. It has JNO Brown headlamps and JNO Brown Model 110 cowl lamps. Has a speedometer, you cannot see the Stewart Model 100, but with the 60 tooth / 8 pitch wheel gear installed it would have been the only possibility.

There are at least 5 Model T Facebook pages, this one is on the following link posted by Ted Griffin:
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=894680210549823&set=gm.10154783764530548&type=1&theater


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hap Tucker in Sumter SC on Wednesday, November 12, 2014 - 08:08 am:

Royce – thank you for posting the link and the photo – agree that is most likely the one being discussed and 1914 model year (before the complete transition to the billed front fenders http://www.mtfca.com/encyclo/F-H.htm#fen1 and the iron sleeve later 1914 – 1921 crank handle http://www.mtfca.com/encyclo/C-D.htm#crank .

Steve,

Bottom Line Up Front: As pointed out by Tony Bowker – using photos taken of Model Ts modified sometime after they left the factory (to keep the car maintained back in the day as well as fixing them up or restoring them later) can be misleading. And Ford tended to make many “running changes” and introduced many but not all changes when they were ready rather than with a specific model year.

Additional Details:
From Bruce McCalley’s (R.I.P.) introduction to his online encyclopedia at http://www.mtfca.com/encyclo/intro.htm he states: It is also extremely important to remember that all Fords of a given year were not exactly the same. Modifications were made at the factory at Highland Park that were not necessarily made on cars assembled at the branches, and vise-versa. Even cars made at the same plant could (and did) vary from one to the next. Variations in the design of various components of the car, due to the varying suppliers of some of the parts, must also be considered. Keep in mind a comment made by a restorer some years ago: “How can we restore these things correctly when Ford never made them correctly?”
Hap again:

Ford seldom did major model year changes with all the changes done at one time. One exception would be when the Model T Ford was introduced in the fall of 1908. It was clearly a “new model” and not just a slightly or even significantly modified Model N, R, S, SR or K. After that Ford continued to introduce changes to improve the car or and/or to make the cost of producing the car lower etc. According to Bruce McCalley (R.I.P.) in his introduction to his book Many of those changes were minor. For example the last of the 1919 non-starter tourings and the first of the 1920 non-starter tourings were about the same except for the engine serial number. And in other cases they were much more noticeable – the 1926 improved models looked significantly different from the 1925 models. But Ford admitted the improved models were basically cosmetic changes to make the chassis a little lower and the bodies a little lower and more streamlined etc.

Note also that it is well documented that Ford often used the older style part while also using the newer style part. There Model T Delivery cars assembled and sold by Ford in 1913. They were essentially the left over 1912 bodies used in the last part of calendar year 1912 but fiscal year 1913 and model year 1913 ref: http://www.mtfca.com/encyclo/1913.htm

And Ford was not troubled by using parts from different years. For example on page 497 of Bruce’s book (also his CD) in the Shipping Invoices section. Around the Jun 1911 time frame there was note “1910 running boards used on a number of cars. “ And the one I love the most from the Shipping Invoices page 482, Jul 20, 1909; Model S Roadsters 3,709; 3,710; and 3,711 along with Model S Laundalet 3,719 were all noted as manufactured (not the shipping date but date of Manufacture). Bruce commented “No explanation as to why these were built at this late date.”

The judging guidelines and Bruce Book describe “typical” cars for the given years. There were differences and the Stynoski winners document why they used certain parts, paint, etc. (For the 1999 winner and comments please see: http://jupiter.plymouth.edu/~trentb/Stynoski.html ). And don’t forget many of the overseas branches had even additional differences from the USA cars (an opening left door for example).

Respectfully submitted,

Hap l9l5 cut off


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Rob Heyen on Wednesday, November 12, 2014 - 08:25 am:

Thank you Hap. I had not seen the S manufactured in 1909.

Must have been having a tough time moving those pesky, slow selling Model S.

Royce, would that make them 1909 Model S?

:-)

Thank you again Hap,

Rob


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Royce in Georgetown TX on Wednesday, November 12, 2014 - 09:05 am:

Rob,

The buyer probably would likely have been told by the selling dealer that his (or her) new Ford was a 1909 model if it was purchased during the 1909 model year. Or, in the case of the last Model K's sold (that we know of) in December 1909 perhaps the buyer would have rightly believed he was buying a 1910 model year car.

The 1914 touring body STYLE was sold well into the 1915 fiscal / model year. Many or most of those "1914" touring pictures we see with billed fenders may actually be 1915 Model T's. The 1915 body style tourings were not shipped out of Highland Park until late February 1915.

So this situation is not limited to any letter of the alphabet - it is what it is, and I am not trying to change history by stating the facts.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Rob Heyen on Wednesday, November 12, 2014 - 09:07 am:

Thanks for the clarification. I know your a believer in representing the "facts."


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Tony Barchock on Wednesday, November 12, 2014 - 09:17 am:

That photo above is the original inspiration for "why did the chicken cross the road"


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Royce in Georgetown TX on Wednesday, November 12, 2014 - 09:31 am:

Getting back to Steve's original post, yes, there were many, many changes during the 1914 model year, and the car in question is likely a 1914 because it has so many features that are what we think of as typical of 1914 tourings made in the middle of 1914 model / fiscal year.

The Stewart Model 100 speedometer, for example, was replaced by the "Ford Special" type perhaps as early as summer 1914 (maybe Russ Furstnow knows exactly when). We know this car does not have a Ford Special speedometer because the speedometer wheel gear is the larger 60 tooth version that required a speedometer drive swivel with 2 1/2 to 1 reduction ratio.

Billed fenders are introduced very late in calendar year, perhaps November 1914, and this car does not have them.

The crank handle is the aluminum one, painted black of course. These were replaced by the tubular cast iron handle in mid 1914 model year.

The windshield used on early 1914 model year cars was carried over from 1913, and folded forward. This car has the later 1914 Rands windshield that folds to the rear, necessitating the dogleg windshield supports seen in the picture.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Jelf, Parkerfield KS on Wednesday, November 12, 2014 - 10:31 am:

“How can we restore these things correctly when Ford never made them correctly?”

I think that's going to become a sign in my shop.
:-)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Larry Smith on Wednesday, November 12, 2014 - 10:45 am:

Look at the crank handle. It's an early '14.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Burger in Spokane on Wednesday, November 12, 2014 - 11:13 am:

By Steve Jelf, Parkerfield KS on Wednesday, November 12, 2014 - 10:31 am:

“How can we restore these things correctly when Ford never made them correctly?”

I think that's going to become a sign in my shop.

==================================================

I have collected old telephone insulators for nearly 50 years now. When I was a kid,
it was all about an organic observation of what was unusual and a connectedness to
the hunting and finding of them.

Today, the hobby is rife with people who squeal like a stuck pig about why they can't
find this or that in THE PRICE GUIDE. Same basic premise .... it was hardware and no
one was taking notes or even cared. Make millions, sell millions, when they break or
get used up, people will just buy more ! No one cared if it had details changed. But
these nuevo-think collectors genuinely believe that everything needs to fit into neat
little mental cubbies and the idea of "random" is beyond their ability to understand !!!

Great phrase. I will certainly use it myself. :-)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John Semprez-Templeton, CA on Wednesday, November 12, 2014 - 12:55 pm:

Well said, Burger.

My son owns an original 1942 Ch#v G506 1 1/2 ton military truck. We know the full history of this truck, as it never left the base until after the war, and can trace it's ownership from the time it left to the present. Yet the "Experts" tear it apart as not original for it's many pre 1942 parts. Hey fools, there was a war going on and no one cared if the grill was an earlier part!

I agree, the early model T's pose a real problem for the purists as many were just born illegitimate, but as you say, no one cared.

The real question to me is, If I change an old Ford back to what it "should " have been, but never was, aren't I corrupting history, or does it matter?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dave Wells on Wednesday, November 12, 2014 - 01:34 pm:

Does this mean I should stop losing sleep over the rear axle with high mounted filler plug on my 1919 branch plant car? I guess if the knowledgeable are not quite sure if the car is original then, it is original enough.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Derek Kiefer - Mantorville, MN on Wednesday, November 12, 2014 - 02:00 pm:

Royce, I believe the billed fenders were as early as September. I have observed several late September-built 1914s with them, including the one my great-grandparents bought new on Oct. 7th 1914.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dave Hjortnaes, Men Falls, WI on Wednesday, November 12, 2014 - 02:18 pm:

Steve. Hopefully u can find someone who knows how to make signs. Maybe he will cut u a deal. :-)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Burger in Spokane on Wednesday, November 12, 2014 - 04:31 pm:

By John Semprez-Templeton, CA on Wednesday, November 12, 2014 - 12:55 pm:
Well said, Burger.

My son owns an original 1942 Ch#v G506 1 1/2 ton military truck. We know the full history of this truck, as it never left the base until after
the war, and can trace it's ownership from the time it left to the present. Yet the "Experts" tear it apart as not original for it's many pre 1942
parts. Hey fools, there was a war going on and no one cared if the grill was an earlier part!

I agree, the early model T's pose a real problem for the purists as many were just born illegitimate, but as you say, no one cared.

The real question to me is, If I change an old Ford back to what it "should " have been, but never was, aren't I corrupting history, or does it matter?

================================================================

While I can appreciate a car's originality, it is the latter day "purists" who behave WAY too much like The Rainman that puke me out. And it is certainly not limited to the T scene. Good Lord, hang around the Corvette crew or Chrysler 300 bunch for an amazing assembly of Rainmen arguing about correct headlight switch bezels and whether or not Friday is fish stick day.

I took endless amusement while deployed, imagining these idiots turned loose on the afghan countryside and how their "social skills" would work in interfacing with a public that not only found their subject matter
irrelevant, but would feel no issue in killing them over it either ! :-)

As Dave said, ... "losing sleep" ! .... yeah, I can hardly get ANY sleep for all the incorrect things that exist in my life. My 26 TT has kerosene lights and electric ! I have a 440 magnum in my 273 Coronet !
My DeSoto will have it's original color changed from boring blue and Kelvinator white to Lilac Metallic and
Charcoal. It will have non-original fuel injection and 906 heads installed ! How will I ever get any rest KNOWING that the purists won't think I am "worthy" ?

Oh yeah, ... I forgot. I laughed my ass off watching the Rainman movie, and I laugh my ass off every time one of those pompous ***** purists goes all Rainman on me or someone I am around. Life is full of REAL problems. Sure, it's good to know what is "correct" to some degree. But really ? .... that whole Rainman
level of stupidtude some people go to ?

Yeah, I have bigger things to worry about ...

(Message edited by adminchris on December 08, 2014)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Royce in Georgetown TX on Wednesday, November 12, 2014 - 05:00 pm:

The identification of what the car has and what time the parts were made is done to date the car accurately. Are you saying that we should be ignorant and ignore these kinds of requests Burger? Or is it better to give the right answer?

Bear in mind that all of my T's are modified with lots of odd paint colors and lots of other incorrect period modifications. I am not a purist, however - I am an expert on what they should have been like. I don't practice what I preach, nor do I condemn those who don't.


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