This is study number 9 for the Improved Models parts and changes. It has been a while since I posted a study so Ill try to continue. The wheels of the Improved Models are a confusing topic. Ill start with what I consider to be a very mis understood wheel. It is the 30 X 3-1/2 inch Non Demountable "steel felloe" clincher wheel. It was the standard wheel for early 1926 (model year) but it is also very closely associated with "non starter" cars. I believe the vast majority of the "steel felloe non demountable clincher" wheels were used on non starter cars. This wheel was also discontinued in 1926 as well as non starter option being discontinued in 1926. I am not really sure of the introduction date of the "steel felloe non demountable clincher" wheel but I feel it was in 1925 model year. There is no "companion" 30 X 3 inch wheel for the front wheels, like the earlier wood felloe non demountable wheels had. The 30 X 3-1/2 inch 'steel felloe non demountable clincher" were used front and rear. They are not dished for the front wheels like the earlier 30 X 3 inch wood felloe wheels were when used on the front. I am also not sure how this wheel applies to TT trucks. Was it also the standard wheel in early 26 model year, and was it likely the wheel that came on non starter TT Trucks .???
Notice in the photo below how the rim and felloe are one piece.
Notice that there is a "spoke cover band", in the photo below, that is inside the rim to cover the spokes and protect the tube and flap from damage.
The rear hub is machined different on the "non demountable steel felloe clincher" wheels that I have seen. Im not sure when the different machining started. It could be something done earlier on other wheels, that Im not aware of, or could be associated to these wheels. ??? Maybe some one will know.
Ill move on to the other wheels tomorrow ....
I've had several of those steel fellow wheels. The two rears that I had were equipped with the typical hubs.
I can only recall owning one hub that was machined like yours. It came on an early round fellow wheel, attached to a '13/'14 differential. Of course, it could have been retrofit to that wheel.
I also have one from an early wheel.
Has anyone ever seen any documentation of when these wheels were used? I will say that I doubted what I was told. However, I had been told that this type felly was used in the early '20s. I had been told this by several people that believed they knew what they were talking about. There was a thread on this site a few years ago to that effect also. There was no final conclusion. And I still won't claim to know.
Some years ago, I did have a 30X3 front wheel with this type all steel felly. I couldn't find any more wheels to match it, so I took it to a swap meet. A fellow came by that said he had both rears and one 30X3 front at home. Boy! Was he thrilled to buy my one to complete his set. I have seen a few (mostly 30X3.5) fellies since. But they must not have sent many to Califunny.
Another fly in the ointment. I wish I had kept them as they were. They were in poor condition, and also went many away years ago. I had a matched pair of square wood felloe 30X3.5 wheels with what looked to be original late 1925 to '27 large brake drums. I have seen other information indicating that wood felly wheels were used at least part way into 1926 model year.
While it is certainly possible that the drums could have been changed at some later time? It would seem unlikely. Clincher tires remained available continuously after the end of model T production. However the 21 inch tire for many people was by then preferred. Also, almost anybody would have made use of a used demountable rim wheel if they wanted to change things yet continue with clincher tires. By 1928, good used wheels were readily available. Anyone else trying to make do with whatever they could get their hands on likely would not have peened the hub bolts so professionally.
Those two wheels alone would not make the case, But I still wish I had kept them.
Donnie, I am not trying to throw a wrench in your works. Just trying to offer some things that need to be considered. Thank you very much for helping to sort out the details of our beloved model T Fords!
Drive carefully, and enjoy, W2
Maybe the steel felloe non demountables are a bit like the stepped drive shaft tubes - perhaps made by one of several suppliers and used on only a minor part of the production perhaps during several years?
In this thread: http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/331880/395844.html?1382196757
Dan Treace found the metal felloe wheels debuted in the Dec. 1920 parts book (#2800D for the 30x3" front wheels) and continued into the improved car era - #2814C2 for large drum rear wheels in the december '25 parts book.
Here is another with that machined rear hub, same as the picture Donnie posted.
Part #2814C2 Rear Wheel-clincher (non-demountable) - 11" brake drum
I had always heard that this wheel could be older than 1925 but had never seen it in print. I do not have a parts book for 1920 but since Dan says it is in there, I assume that to be correct info. The wheel I show above, with the large drum, would be a part number 2814C2 as listed in the Dec 25 parts book, for Improved models rear wheel. I do still believe this wheel to be very closely tied to "non starter" cars. My opinion (for what little its worth) is that "most" non starters came with the non demountable wheels, but could be had with any of the optional wheels of the time. But since dealers could change wheels easily, there is no telling what "could be". If a farmer came in that was used to the non demountable wheels, and was on a tight budget, and wanted a set of them on his new 1927 Fordor enclosed car, I imagine a dealer would put them on for him. As to a 30 X 3 inch non demountable steel felloe front wheel. I have never seen one yet. (and I have been looking a long time). Im not discounting the fact that they may exist, but every time I go to look at one, it is always a wood felloe. Bruce's encyclopedia does state that the fronts were not dished for 25 and 26 but does not say anything about the earlier wheels. Dan, If you are following this, can you post a photo of the 1920 parts catalog info. I just want my "eyes" to see it in print. After all I was born in Missouri (the show me state) . Wayne do not worry about "wrench throwing" That is the purpose of the "studies"
Dan, Where did you take the picture of the wheel you posted above.??? It looks to be the exact same wheel as mine. The grease stains are in the exact same location as my wheel, and also in relation to the missing bolt. I think I bought that wheel last year, at either Chickasha or Springfield Missouri. I think we have photos of the same wheel. I have three of the wheels at this time, the large drum shown above, a small drum and a front. All are 30 X 3-1/2 inch wheels. I have owned about a dozen of them thru the years, all were 30 X 3-1/2 inch. Most people who know me can tell you how many T parts I have dealt with thru the last 30 or so years. I could literally rival Model T Haven if I still had it all. So with the shear tonnage of parts, and also watching and having an interest in these wheels for all those years. To never have seen a 30 X 3 inch front steel felloe non demountable wheel is the main driving force of my skeptical view of them. I feel they are like "space aliens" or "bigfoot" I believe they may exist, but until I see the "body", Im still skeptical But I will be the first to say "I was wrong" when the "body" shows up .....
Donnie, I will try to remember to measure my steel felloe front wheels today, I thought they were 30x3.
might remember the camera and take a pic too.
David, Thanks for the input. Remember Im from Missouri, so Ill need photos, two forms of ID a notorized statement, and probably mail the offending wheel to me, if it turns out to be a 30 X 3 inch steel felloe.
That non demountable wheel with 11" drums was at Chickasha. Took the photo 2008. Guess you have that wheel now.
Checked in Bruce's CD using factory numbers, and unfortunately its just not clear, no descriptions of the felloe material.
Only can 'guess' as to why the parts are different factory numbers, would 'seem' to indicate the metal felloe non-demountable came along in 1926.
Mar. 1, 1920 catalog:
Part 2814C Rear wheel non demountable Fac# 2815
July 23 1924 catalog:
Part 2814C Rear wheel clincher Fac# 2815
Aug 1, 1926 catalog:
Part 2814C Rear wheel clincher Fac#2815AR
Part 2814C2 Rear Wheel clincher 11" drum Fac#2815K
The from catalogs in my collection.
Bruce's CD Factory Parts lists leaves out the Fac#2815K. Don't know why he left it out of the listing.
This would be the rear wheel with metal felloe, non-demountable, for small drum. Proof would be with drawing of Fac# 2815AR and dates of used would be on that drawing too
Anyone going to Benson Ford Research Library ?
My bad, Bruce's list has the 2815K, but he leaves out the 2815AR!
Its the 2815AR that is the metal felloe clincher non demountable.!!!!
To add, all these rear wheels are 30 x 3 1/2"
Dan, Thanks for the input. I have copied 2 pages of my Jan,1, 1925 parts list, and one page of my Aug, 5, 1928 parts list. From reading the 1928 parts list I can see that the 1926 clincher front wheel part #2800A1 was considered 1926 only .?? and then part # 2800 front wheel clincher was considered the replacement for all clincher wheels from 1909 to 26. My question is was part # 2800A1 the non demountable steel felloe wheel with no dish to the spokes, the wheel we are discussing. It is also noted to be 30X 3-1/2 inch. Then is part # 2800 a wood felloe wheel (with a dish and 30X3 inch)If you look at part # 2814F2 for the rear wheel, it is also 1926 only. If I am reading this right, Is the non demountable steel felloe wheel a 1926 only wheel .???? The parts list pages are posted below for everyones viewing pleasure and may the arguments begin.
Jan 1 1925 page 7
Jan 1 1925 page 8
Aug 5, 1928
Jan1, 1925 page 7
Jan 1, 1925 page 8
I forgot!! Remembered it as I pulled out of the driveway in the morning. Will try tomorrow.
David, when you get around to measuring the wheel, can you measure the tire width and also the overall outside diameter of the wheel/rim.?? Thanks
OK, Here are my thoughts so far. Correct me if Im wrong. I believe part # 2800C shown in my 1925 parts list is a wood felloe wheel. The part number 2800C if sold "with hub" but no small brake drum could explain not needing another part number, if there was a "wood felloe" "large brake drum" option offered in very early 26 model year as Wayne speaks of above. My wheel shown above with part # 2800C2 shown in the 1928 parts list as "1926 only" would explain the need for a new part number (for the large drum and possibly steel felloe combination)
I believe(still my opinion at this time) that the "steel felloe non demountable clincher" was an attempt (too late) to use the same size tire all around, and not need a dished spoke wheel for the front. ??
There is a part # 2800D offered in the 1928 parts list for a front wheel "less hub" for 1909-26 I believe that to be a wood felloe wheel. There is also a matching , rear wheel "less hub" part # 2814D that should also be a wood felloe wheel.
Part # 2800A1 (1926 front with hub) and part # 2814 C2 (1926 rear with hub) do not have a matching set "without hubs" offered.
The 1928 parts list sure does point to wood felloe wheels (with dished fronts) being used all the way to 1926(model year), and causing an overlap with what appears to be the introduction of the new "steel felloe non demountable" wheels. Those wheels were also discontinued in 1926 (possibly with the end of the non starter option being offered)
I have always believed (my opinion again) that the "steel felloe non demountable wheel" is a Improved car only type of thing. I had lots of info pointing to it being used in 1925 but not earlier. It could be my 1925 dates were a model year/calendar year type of confusion that happens a lot.
I have not forgot the other three wheel choices for the Improved models, Ill get to them soon, but this wheel has turned into a very interesting study (for me)
Last but not least, If for some reason David finds a 30X3 inch "steel felloe non demountable wheel" (space alien/bigfoot wheel) Then Ill need to refigure. Since part # 2800A1 is a 30X3-1/2 inch front wheel in the 1928 parts list, I do not know what finding a 3 inch wheel would mean ......
Didn't see your measurement post, but the photos should show the difference
YES!! it is 30x3 size!! No time this AM to download & shrink photos (I'm on Dial up), but will do so when I get in this evening.
While putting the wheel back (no camera then !) I noticed the spokes are slightly oval in shape!!!
Donnie, Change in schedule, I'm home for Lunch, so here's the pictures. 25" diameter wheel, and I'm remembering the car these came from actually had 30x3.5 tires on these, and I used them on the replacement wheels--had to let the tires sit in the sun for a few days to get them to "shrink" back down--still easiest clinchers I ever put on! (Tires were only a year old, long story about that car, but you can see the gaps between the spokes, which is why I replaced them with demountable rims (car was a hodge-podge of parts used to make a "Fire Chief's Car" and it's still in use at the fire hall in Almanor, CA.
30 x 3.5 rim on top to prove size
edge with stem hole, think you can see how much narrower the rim is than the 30 x 3.5 too.
(Message edited by adminchris on November 28, 2014)
David, I guess you have found "bigfoots body" A 30X3 inch wheel should be about 25-1/16 inch in diameter. You say its 25 inch so that's close enough. A 30X3-1/2 inch wheel should be 24-1/16 inch in diameter. I will have to study the parts numbers some more to see if the numbers allow this wheel to exist. And just for the record, I always said if Im proven wrong Ill be the first to admit it. "I was wrong about the 3 inch wheels existing" ..... It is strange that all the steel felloe clinchers I have seen and owned in the last 25 or so years have been 30X3-1/2 inch wheels. I am currently trying to get an Aug 1925 parts list. maybe it will show some new info ... David, one more question, do you want to sell them. I may need them for my early 1926 non starter touring car ....?? Thanks for the input and measuring the wheel ...
Well, the 25-1/16" sounds about right, because the tape looked like it was a big proud of 25" .
Sell??? Hmm, let me think about this, think I have one rear; I was thinking of coming up with a full set, but, on the other hand, what would I put them on?? And I like the idea of you keeping a "bare bones" '26 "right."
The spokes seem to be pretty solid, but they are loose at the hub a bit. Rims aren't perfect, but not bad, and should clean up easily.
I'll take a closer look at both of them and see if I have another rear, and do some thimkin' about what I want to do with them.
Let me try to understand what we have to date on 30 x 3 and 30 x 3 1/2 non demountable wheels on 1926 27 open improved models.
We believe that 30 x 3 1/2 all steel non demountable clincher wheel rim combination (one piece) was used on early open cars.
The literature states that cord and not fabric construction tires were used on the improved models.
Example wheels of all steel clincher wheel rim combination of 30 x 3 have surfaced but has it been determined that Ford actually supplied them on the early 1926 open cars? Remember the brochure states that the tires were of cord and not fabric construction. Have we seen and 30 x 3 clincher tires of cord construction?
I have a 30X3 clincher tire in my garage marked "Bedford Cord" which would seem to indicate the answer is yes. It is a brand new, never mounted tire. Wish I had a twin to it!
On the 1925 parts list, does the page before list the part numbers for spindles and spindle arms? I would be curious to see what they are. I wonder if the Canadian cars had different parts numbers stamped into them.
Another question, which I believe has been answered in the past, but I believe that the 1927 Canadian cars had an option of having wood wheels as opposed to wire wheels. Mine does and I would say that my car was 90% original and 90% worn out when I got it. However, just because there were so many original parts on it, doesn't mean that the wheels were correct.
I just today, received the Aug 1 1925 parts book and the May 1, 1920 parts list I bought. I already had the Jan 1,1925 and the Aug 5, 1928 parts list shown above. Im just now trying to make some sence of them. Ill probably post something tomorrow if I can figure them out (or not). I had been waiting for them to come in, so I could have a little more info to compare ...
The Ford sales data book for 1926 (first edition) also know as the Fordex on page 15 of the detail data pages states: fixed rim: 30 x 3 1/2 front and rear. (this booklet was used by Ford salesman but was not published by Ford).
Has anyone seen any literature from Ford that states a 30 X 3 non-demountable steel felloe and rim combination came on an early open model 1926 Ford? Perhaps such an item existed, but do we have any documentation to that effect?
Donnie, what was on your touring all four 30 x 3 1/2?
Well after reviewing my new(old) parts list. I can say the May 1, 1920 parts list, really added nothing as far as useful info. The Aug 1, 1925 parts list, lists the same part numbers as the Jan 1, 1925 parts list as far as clincher wheels go. But the Aug 1,1925 parts list shows no parts later than 1925. There is no mention of any Improved model parts in it. The Jan 1, 1925 parts list, also does not list any parts in it later than 1925. The only thing I believe at this time is that the 1926 Improved models using the non demountable steel felloe wheels were 30X3-1/2 inch all the way around for 1926 only, and not offered in 1927. (info from the Aug 5, 1928 parts list) It appears the 30X3 inch and 30X3-1/2 inch steel felloe non demountables were used in 1925 and possibly earlier, but how far back is not clear. Many years ago I had a short discussion with Bruce RIP. We were at Chickasha and I had one of the wheels for sale. That wheel is what started the discussion and my interest in them. During our short discussion I came away with the belief that Bruce thought the wheels were 1925 and 1926. But he did not have enough info to prove it at that time. So we just left it at that. So my obsession with the wheels has been "on going" since then. I do believe Dan is right. It will probably take a research trip to the "Benson" to find out anything for sure. Jim: I looked at the parts numbers for the spindles and spindle arms. The part number changed several times from 1920 parts list to the 1928 parts list. It was somewhat confusing so Ill need to look at it some more.
Arnie, My early touring had incorrect wheels on it when I got it. (chevy disc with hubs welded in them) So no help there. I am also not stating that the steel felloe wheels was just an open car thing. I do still believe they are very closely tied to "non starter, loss leader cars) So if someone wanted a closed 1926 car with non starter, I assume it could have been bought that way, and the steel felloe clincher wheels could have came on it also. Just not enough info to say for sure one way or the other. Dealers also did a lot of changing to make the cars more "sellable" and that also adds to the confusion. There were a lot of very "frugal" folks back then. A poor farmer may have wanted a closed car, but could not afford all the luxury items (starter, demountable wheels, ect) so a dealer may have changed them out to make a sale .????? Its confusing but fun