I'm thinking about installing oil slinger in my t. What are the benefits and draw backs?
My understanding is you remove the magnets, and field coil.
So you don't have to mess with them anymore. If this is so then is there a way to wire the switch so it still will work on mag and batt positions?
Can you still crank start?
Travis E Towle
If you remove the mag,why would you need the switch to it work?
There are many benefits. Lighter flywheel means less bearing wear. No magnets to break off putting a hole in the hogshead. No field coil to suddenly uncoil and wrap itself around the transmission.
Better service access and no real drama if you drop something into the transmission.
You can simply wire the "mag" terminal to the "batt" terminal if you want the switch to work in both positions. The magneto was damaged well before I got the car so never missed it - I got the coils and timer to work well on battery alone.
Yes, you can certainly crank start just the same.
I used the Texas T Parts slingers and found them to be well made. Whatever you use should have bracing otherwise bending and future breakage can occur.
The magnets and field coils don't need to be messed with, once in good shape, will last for years.
That's the wonder of the Ford internal flywheel magneto, no maintenance, no fuss, just free AC electrical power for the ignition, Ford's Model T was "Green" a century ago, and with that low tension magneto retained, your Ford will always be "Green".
To add a bit to what Dan just said, I think removing the magnets would make a noticeable difference in driving the car. By lightening the flywheel when magnets are removed, starting the car in "low pedal" will feel considerably different and killing the engine would be a factor until you got used to the new "feel". This is due to less initial torque when starting from stop at low rpm due to lighter flywheel. FWIW,....harold
That's correct, the lightened flywheel produces less low end torque getting underway.
No issue if one is mounting a light weight speedster body or speedster seats and gas tank on back, and two passengers.
If done in a heavy sedan or a touring with back seat passengers too, there will be a noticeable slow pull to get to high gear.
The drawback is that it devalues the car when you decide to sell it. If I am buying a Model T it says a lot about the knowledge and care that was taken in rebuilding the car if the ignition system is functional.
I don't think anyone should ever have to "mess with" a properly installed set of magnets ever again. The cost of installing them is minimal, particularly since you already have a set. If the engine is apart now is the time to do it one time and do it right. If one or two are cracked they are dirt cheap to replace. Install them with a new set of spools and screws, again cheaper than the dippers.
You may be new to the Model T hobby, and magnets may seem mysterious and dangerous because you hear other newbies talking that sort of thing. The advantages of keeping the magneto functional outweigh any theoretical and miniscule advantages that are thought to exist by removing them.
If you were in a money race against an identical 1926 roadster with exactly the same equipment as your car and it was going to pay you $5000 then I think you would notice a performance advantage in the first 25 feet. Any other time you will like the way the car drives with the magnets installed. The car will start from a stop easier with less stalling, and it will not bog down when shifting to direct gear (high) at less than full throttle and maximum RPM.
So yes, if this is a full time race car and you have to exact every 1/4 horsepower to have the chance to win, remove the magnets and install a crank triggered MSD ignition with a 60 AMP alternator. On the other hand if you only need to go 70 MPH all day long like the Montana 500 race cars, you need to keep the original system intact because it is going to pay you actual financial dividends and make the car easier to drive.
Am I wrong in assuming the magnets, spools and plates probably throw quite a bit of oil anyway. As I recall (and I hate admitting I did it) I started my car on battery once after removing the magneto post. The amount of oil coming out of that little hole was unreal. I'd hate to think what would happen if the transmission cover was taken off or even loosened on its own. And something else to think of is the fact your model t has a redundant ignition system that lowers the odds of mission failure while on tour.
Royce is right a t will drive and run better with the original magnets than it will with the slingers, Travis I also have a 26 roadster, and the big thing to keep in mind is that they are heavier than the earlier roadsters and you need all the rear end torque you can get. To get that torque you need a heavy flywheel, so instead of buying slingers, I would rebuild the original magneto, and then buy a high volume intake manifold for a little bit of extra zip
I disagree with the idea that the flywheel produces torque. Torque is produced by the engine and will remain the same whether it has 75lb. flywheel or a 5lb. flywheel. I can see where a flywheel will store kinetic energy and release it but it takes energy (torque) to get it up to speed before that energy can be used or make a difference. So if you are removing energy from the driveline at startup to begin with, how is a heavier flywheel an advantage?
Inquiring minds want to know.
I agree with Ken. A flywheel produces nothing. It only stores kinetic energy. Torque is a product of the power plant. Some energy is stored in the flywheel and will be released as load is increased on the drive line, such as when starting out or shifting, however, I'm not sure how much difference just the weight of 16 magnets really makes.
The flywheel stores torque so that it can be used.
The primary function of a flywheel in a reciprocating engine is to carry the crankshaft through one cylinder firing before TDC to the next cylinder firing before TDC and so on. If one cylinder fired before TDC without the flywheel, the crank would instantly reverse rotation and probably fracture. It smooths out the engine.
My bank stores my money. My flywheel stores my kinetic energy. I make my money. My engine makes my torque. Read a book. You might learn something.
If your magneto works, I think it would be a mistake to remove it. The flywheel does not create torque, however, it does keep up the momentum of the engine when running at lower speeds and make the engine run smoothly. The magnets are the best oil slingers you can have on the car.
I ran a 26 roadster for 10 years on coils and 6 volt battery because the magneto didn't work. The coils were adjusted so that the engine ran smoothly on all cylinders, however, it was one of the slowest cars on tours. Later I rewound a magneto coil and charged the magnets. What a difference! I now have one of the fastest T's. The original ignition system works very well if it is in good condition.
You can run your coils on 6 volts or 12 volts or run a distributor or e-timer. You can run a trufire, or an external magneto, but if you want the thrill of driving a Model T, a good working magneto is hard to beat.
That doesn't answer the question. I didn't say NO flywheel. What's the advantage of a heavy flywheel? So far, all I've seen is that it compensates for poor driving technique.
Royce - Where does that torque being stored come from?
If you have five apples and put two in the refrigerator, how many are left? It's the same with a flywheel. If you're going to store energy, that energy has to come from somewhere. Unless there's some magic flux capacitor in there somewhere.
The heavier the flywheel the more torque can be stored and the car is easier and more enjoyable to drive.
The flywheel stores inertia. The greater the mass, the more it takes to get it rotating. Once is is rotating it takes allot to get it to slow down. Thus when you engage low, more energy in the form of inertia keeps the flywheel turning making for an easier engagement of low speed.
Conversely, a light flywheel will spin up quicker, but is more susceptible to slowing rapidly when load is applied. (easier to stall the engine).
For a T, I'd keep the heavy flywheel. For a racing application I'd go with a light flywheel.
How does having money sitting in the bank make life easier and more enjoyable? It does nothing till you spend it.
Technically, if you really want to know, the flywheel stores rotational energy that is released as torque. It does not store torque. Torque is the power that gets the flywheel spinning. May be nit picking, but just trying to show that some experts are only expert in their own mind.
Dennis I'm glad I am not an expert, it shows you learn something everyday. Ken thanks for the physics lesson, If Royce has a flux capacitor in his car then I'm going to have to borrow it to get back to 1955, I think the magneto can put out 1.21 Gigawatts of power
"The greater the mass, the more it takes to get it rotating."
Exactly. The more what? Where does it come from? It comes from the engine. What is absorbed getting the flywheel to rotate in the first place does not go the rest of the drivetrain so that energy is lost when starting.
Unless you guys are revving your engines then engaging low, your loosing the torque absorbed by the flywheel to spin up. You don't gain anything.
The bare flywheel puts out a lot of oil....you need to add a large outside oil line like what is offered from Texas T. There is no need for adding slingers which can fail and do a lot of damage. The damage has been previously documented on this forum. Slingers also reduce HP due to increased drag.
Our 13 touring has been on the road for 15 yrs. running with no magnets or slingers. However, it does have an added 1/2" outside oil line running from the hogs head to the pan lined up with #1 rod. No bearing adjustments yet.
This is fact....not speculation.
Without magnets, our Touring is initially slower off the line but once moving accelerates quicker compared to running with magnets.
It's like camshafts....you lose in one area to gain in another.
Ken Kopsky - I think I may have started this in my post of 07:49 pm when I used the term initial torque. I should have used the term inertia as John Zibell did in his post of 10:26 pm.
You are certainly right Ken, in that the flywheel does not produce torque. Again, inertia is what I should have said, and the heavier the flywheel, the more inertia is present to start the car moving away from a dead stop.
John Zibell explained what I was trying to say in much better terms than I did,........harold
I think Ken is spot on. Some of the engine torque is used up in getting that flywheel mass rotating. Once the flywheel builds rpm more engine power is used to keep its mass rotating. There is considerable drag on the flywheel with magnets and spools having to cut through and move the oil. Naturally, a more streamlined flywheel would would allow rpm's to build more rapidly due to less drag, and would store its rotational energy more efficiently. As a result it would release more of that stored energy to the drive line because it has less drag. I think it would about be a trade off. It might be noticeable, but I don't think it would make a drastic difference on take off. I think the faster rpm build from idle would make up for the slight loss of stored energy in the flywheel. Just my opinion, but fun to think about. At any rate, I wouldn't strip a good mag to find out.
I won't get into the torque/driveability business but will stick strictly to the $ business. Flat out the car is worth more with the mag there. In fact it's worth more if the mag is there and doesn't work as opposed to changing to a slinger set-up. Sound nuts? Think about it. A potential buyer won't have to start from scratch (nor will you for that matter) if they want to repair/restore it and the orig set-up oils everything just fine. Cash in pocket.
Travis, it's easy really - how are you planning to use the car and how stock will it be?
If you're into the go fast crowd that wants to reach the limit of splash oil at about 2000 rpm regularly, then you should get a ignition system that works better than the original system at higher rpm:s and can remove the magnets if you like.
With 3.64 in the rear end 2000 rpm is about 50 mph.
If you want the car to be more original and likes to travel at a slower pace at about 1400 rpm - that's 35 mph, then you should keep the original ignition system and the magnets.
The Montana 500 racers has shown it's possible to go fast with the original system too, but they have some secrets and it isn't cheap or easy to build an engine that can follow their pace with reliability..
The talk about flywheel weight and drivability is all about starting from standing still in low. After you've started a low weight of the flywheel is only a plus, it'll allow the engine to accelerate faster.
I have a very light primitive pickup with slingers made out of angle iron on the flywheel. With 3:1 in the rear axle I must rev the engine when starting and let the low band (wood) slip for a couple of yards. A heavier flywheel may have helped and reduced band wear/ low drum abuse.
With the original setup (or a lower gear like in a Ruckstell) you can go lower in rpms when starting and let the low band lock the drum almost instantly.
So it all depends on how you want to us your car. If you want to go fast you have to change more parts from original - better brakes, high compression head, better carb, etc, etc.
Ok, better brakes and a high compression head helps if you want to go touring with the Model T clubs too
Here's my transmission with the slingers and old stock scandinavia lining for reverse, wood for low and kevlar for the brake band..
My next engine will probably have flywheel magnets to check out the difference
The flywheel helps keep the motor rotating the heavier it is the easier it is for the pistons to apply power to it.
On a single cylinder motor the flywheel has to be heavier so it can rotate more easily as it has more inertia.
If the flywheel is heavier it not only makes taking off in low gear easier the engine will pull easier at low speed and when climbing hills.
Having a speedster with a light flywheel makes my Fronty rev easier but it also prevents it from pulling on hills as well as my other Model T's with magnets on the flywheels.
In 50 plus years in Model T's I have only heard of a couple of examples of magnets etc coming loose and causing a problem. Another myth I'm afraid.
I find this thread timely, as I have just stripped all the magneto out of an engine for my speedster project. Although I haven't weighed them individually, in total, the coil plate, magnets, bolts, screws, spools and clamps etc; = 15kgs or 33lbs approx. I expect the coil plate to be around half of that.
I should have added that as a result of this thread, I'm considering putting the magnets back in place.
When engaging low or reverse the throttle should not be advanced unless you are on a steep hill or some other odd case like being stuck in the mud.
Note, the car compression starts once it is warm so there is no cranking or starter needed. I apologize for the Cicada noise in parts of the video, it is not a cicada year but there are always some out of season ones that sing when the temperature is over 100.
Well then; I think we all should add 500lb. flywheels to really improve the Model T.
I wonder how this turned out?
My Fordor has the magnets on the flywheel and it seems to lug up hills better than my 26 coupe with slingers, it just has more umph!
Yes this is a timely thread and, as a result, I'm going to reinstall the magneto assy. back into my '27 coupe