Is there anyone making hardened rollers for Ford script timers?
You could use a ball bearing.
Ted, I tried the ball bearing route once. The trouble is with a bearing the outer part of the race is designed to be held stationary. The wiping action in a T timer tends to wear the outside of the ball race and things get nasty from there.
Don't know how others get on.
Allan from down under.
Howard Cascia used to but he is passed away. As recently as last month some of the part sellers still had Ford roller timers refurbed by Howard. You might try calling Chaffins or Langs.
The "Casica" (RIP) timer is the same reproduction timer we ran on the Model K. As you recall, that timer needed to be "refurbished after about 2,000 miles, new roller and the contacts and insulation taken down. Same with the reproduction on our Model N (on the third one). They were made from rob soft of materials, and in the case of our Model N, was the reason for our only failure to make a New London to New Brighton tour. They are a beautiful reproduction, but the materials used were too soft.
Certainly not an alternative for distance driving, in my opinion.
Were you using oil or grease Rob? I have had a Cascia timer on my '13 (now in Moscow) and it went for thousands of miles with no apparent wear. But I was using red Mobil #28 grease.
This thread isn't about a brass reproduction timer that's no longer made. It's about a forum member looking for a reproduction roller for a Ford timer.
Rob, if you have nothing relevant to add to a thread it is not helpful for you to insult and attack other posters.
I suggested who Dean might call in order to obtain such a part. Chaffins or Langs may still have the reproduction rollers in stock. They are sold separately from the timers. They look like this:
Chaffins lists the timer rollers rebuilt by Howard under Part number 3165B on page 42 of their current catalog.
Langs shows it here:
That would be Howard Cacchia, formally of San Luis Obispo.
Ron the Coilman
Thanks for the proper spelling Ron.
Rob you seem cranky, maybe you need a nap.
Dean I've made them from triple gear pins. They machine really well. I've also substituted ball bearing rollers. They last a very long time. The problem is the OD of the ball bearings is smaller than the original roller which limits the amount of stock you can remove from the race. What I've done to save early brass two piece timers is to remove just enough of the race to clean them up and make a roller from a triple gear pin larger in diameter by the amount I removed from the race.
Now we're talking! That's good info, Richard.
Royce The roller in your photo is NOT built like a three piece ford roller. The shaft must be too soft for the square crimp. The roller in My photo is from a Ford script timer It shows the wear but does not show the part that is riveted and holds it together.
This design allows the roller & inner bearing surface to be hardened for longer service.
As my photo shows they still wear out!
The photo I posted is an original Ford Script timer roller that was rebuilt by Howard Cacchia. Howard used a hollow end steel rivet. The tool Howard used to set the rivets made the square pattern.
According to Lang's web site:
"The roller spins on a hardened sleeve. Roller and sleeve are heat treated to 50 R.C for strength."
The roller on Lang's website is fairly inexpensive. Not sure if it is one of Harold's or not. Last time I talked to Dave at Chaffins they still had some of the good ones Harold did.
Again, use grease for best life of your timer.
Richard Gould - Obviously, you have found the ball bearing rollers to be successful, or you would have mentioned any problems. However, not knowing that, even with my very "limited" knowledge of "things electrical", I would wonder if a ball bearing roller would always provide dependable and constant electrical continuity for a length of time/miles, depending upon such variables as wear, type of lubrication, etc. Just mentally sort of comparing a ball bearing to a loose electrical connection,.....just wondering,......FWIW,......harold
Royce I question if grease will allow a roller timer to function in cold weather? Texas heat would probably keep it soft enough.
Hi Harold. One thing comes to mind. You use two ball bearings and they do create two tracks in the race rather than one as when you use a solid roller. I probably have to clean up the races with a lathe more frequently but I can't even be sure of that. My only complaint is that the diameter is smaller than the solid roller. OTOH, ball bearing rollers outlast the timer cases by a lot. I have one in my pickup I've used for many years. Never had a need to change it. I wish I could be more informative, but honestly I just haven't experienced any real problems with them.
A fellow by the name of J. Gitsema introduced me to the use of ball bearings. Don't know if he is still making them, but at the time, he would sell you a refurbished rotor with a ball bearing rotor for a reasonable price. Since then, when my solid rollers wore out, I substituted a couple ball bearings with a new rivet. Just lately I have made solid rollers out of triple gear pins.
Some of the Tulsa guys (Fred Houston and Mike Bender, to name a couple) used to re-do roller timers to have ball bearings. They liked them a lot at that time. I don't know whether they still use them or not.
Mobil 28 is a synthetic grease. It is no thicker at cold temperatures and it does not get thinner at high temperatures. I have lived in Cincinnati and Newport News and driven my Ts in sub zero temperatures quite a lot. No issues and easy starting by crank.
I agree with Royce on the choice of Mobile 28 for the roller. Royce, have you considered Mobile 33? My employer is switching our fleet over to 33 as it is used through out the Airbus and Boeing and Douglas fleet. As I understand it, the corrosion protection is improved especially in areas where moisture intrudes. ( don't think the roller is one of them ). I'm guessing you use 28 all over the T? It is a much better grease than the competitions #7 which I hate.
I'm guessing from the size of that can you have a few years to decide.
The last time I mentioned using bearings, I got reamed by the Model T police. A few said the electrical arching would burn the bearing balls and eventually pit, carbon and loose contact. There is no arching if the balls are in constant contact. Just like and no different than a roller over a sleeve.
Ken, do you have a part number for a single wide bearing? I run a pair but would rather run a single.
No, I don't think any that wide are available.
I have a lot of the #27 and #33 too. I get 5 pound cans of it free when it reaches the shelf life. Never tried anything else since #28 works so well. Might have to do so.
"I have lived in Cincinnati and Newport News and driven my Ts in sub zero temperatures quite a lot."
Of course you have....
I lived in Cincinnati from 2001 - 2009. Many of our tours were on days with snow or sleet or heavy rain. Never had a problem. The Nokin T's club has a tour 10 months out of the year, typically about 200 miles round trip. It is a very active T club and I was in hog heaven as part of that group. We went to the Cincinnati Reds opener in 2009 where I drove from Hebron KY to Crestview Hills (Tom Bauer's house) then to Cincinnati during a steady snow storm. After the game we drove home. Somehow they did play a full game in between flurries that day. Side curtains were used!
From 2010 - 2011 I alternated between Tucson and Newport News, Virginia, with a house in both places and Model T's in both places. I was a member and toured with the Old Pueblo Touring association. Here is one of my posts on that:
Meanwhile out in Virginia I was a member of the local HCCA chapter and we toured with them on some cold and hot days. I posted plenty on this forum about that.
Folks that have used ball bearings used two, side-by-side. I have been told that the ball bearing idea isn't the greatest. Arcing between the balls and their races causes erosion that wears down the balls and races and makes a very worn, sloppy bearing.
If you can, get a piece of 52100 bar stock, turn up a roller and see if your local heat treater will do you the favor of hardening it at a reasonable cost. Best if you did a quantity.
You could use any hardenable steel however,(M4, M2, D2, H13, 8620, etc.), it doesn't need to be 52100 necessarily.
Here's a link to the Tulsa Chapter's website re timer restoration and the use of ball bearing rollers.
One final point. The outside circumference of the ball bearings shows minor pitting from arcing but that isn't a problem. What can be a problem, as with solid rollers, is wear that occurs on the pin or spindle. Best when using ball bearings is to have a light press fit on the pin so the inner race stays stationary and the outer race revolves on the balls.
Re making solid rollers, if I were to go to the trouble of hardening the rollers, I would also want to harden the pins. A chain is as weak as the weakest link.
How about a needle roller bearing instead of 2 x ball bearings?
Don't see any sub-zero pics or days. Maybe you meant sub-zero, Celsius.
It was 2 degrees (F) the day this video was shot outside my house in 2009:
Certainly a lot of snow. In Cincinnati? I recall seeing the video several years ago, probably when you initially posted it.
My house was in the Cincinnati suburb of Hebron KY where that video was shot. It snows a lot in Cincinnati from November through April.
Here's a NOKIN T Club tour posting with better weather. Roger had a "professionally restored" T with a water pump that would either leak or be locked up, causing frequent delays in the follow - the - leader tour that day:
"...if I were to go to the trouble of hardening the rollers, I would also want to harden the pins."
Jerry, Yes that is why I posted the roller in my photo. The inner pin would also be hardened. Then attached with a softer rivet.
That is how the later Ford script rollers were made.
Cheaper timers do not have the three piece construction thus must have a softer inner bearing surface so it can be riveted.
Royce Starting in a heated garage when it is cold out does not count.