Ok, so I found the perfect used pickup with everything I want with a really good price. Talked to the dealer tuesday evening via phone and told me the truck was there, it is all as advertised, for the posted price. I allowed them to charge my CC a 500.00$ deposit to hold till I can drive up to see it. Today wife and I drive 400 miles round trip to keep our appointment.
We get there and the salesman gets the truck. Um, that's not the same truck! After a search of the lot, talks with the sales manager three times, we find out they can't find the truck I called about, they told me they had, the truck the salesman said he was going to put a hold tag in. Gee they can't find it and have no idea why its not there. ????
To make it up to me, they will do everything to get me a great deal. They shows us trucks with more miles, less equipment, 1 and 2 years older with HIGHER prices than the one I spent my time and gas to go see. After looking at two trucks, I asked the salesman "what is the best way to get back to I-80 from here?"
I hate car shopping. Anyone else?
Sounds like the old bait and switch. I'd make a call to the BBB and make sure they refund your card.
I worked as a parts person in a "Big 3" American name dealership for a number of years. I hate salesmen. I worked in two different dealerships at two different times for close to 15 years total and they (salesmen) were mostly all the same. They will promise you the world and really have no control---they are just pawns for the sales manager to use. Of course there are a few exceptions to the rule, but good like finding them. I literally met 4 guys that were top notch in all those years.
I think you got hit with the old bait and switch. Not only did they sell the truck you thought was going to be yours but they were counting on you buying the truck they brought you after they'd smoothed it over. This is where it's imperative you understand a little thing I've heard referred to as "The Lowerarchy Of Life". The bottom three rungs include:
#2 Real Estate Agents
#3 Used Car Salesmen
Disclaimer: this list is not indicative of all professions listed. But if the shoe fits; tie the laces!
Yep Chad, I figure if I had a real keyboard instead of this touch screen you would never have posted ahead of me.
The first new car I bought in 1968 was a special ordered Pontiac Catalina. I wanted a Chevy Impala but the Chevy dealer wanted to play the old 'inflated trade in' price game. He was willing to special order the Impala that I wanted; selling it to me at MSRP sticker price and then giving me wholesale or less for my trade in; adding some of the difference between Dealer's wholesale cost and the sticker price to the amount he was giving me for my trade in; making it look like he was really doing me a favor and valuing my trade in at a high price.
I saw through this and went to the Pontiac dealer in a town 20 miles away. I explained what the Chevy dealer did and said he didn't do business that way. He said he would order the car I wanted, making a profit of only 10% of the base retail price of his car; sell me as many options as I wanted at his cost; show me his prices from the manufacturer; and give me top wholesale price for my trade in. This made sense to me. In actuality, the MSRP of the base Catalina without options, was $3,250.00, so his 10% profit was $325.00. Then all options were at dealer wholesale cost to me. I don't remember what I actually ended up paying when all was said and done, but the total MSRP sticker price of the Catalina was $5,500.00, which he said was the highest priced Catalina that he had ordered to that date. He had ordered Bonneville's and Gran Prix's that were more, but my Catalina had almost every option on the order sheet. I have never in the 46 years since that, found a dealer that did business like that.
Of course that type of business wouldn't work now. With new cars and pickups retailing for $40,000 or more; if a dealer made 10% on a $40,000.00 vehicle, that would put $4,000.00 in his pocket.
When looking for a new pickup, wife and I were out of town and decided to stop at a dealer we always heard advertising "low overhead". The truck we wanted was on the lot. The salesman brought out some paperwork, the price was higher than we figured it should be for a "low overhead" dealer so we left and took the paperwork with us. Stopped at a local dealer who didn't have the truck we wanted in stock but could get it with a dealer trade.....yup, you know where I'm going with this! We bought the truck from the local dealer for $500. less than the "low overhead" dealer and had the paperwork in our hand showing the same vin!
Many years ago I was looking to buy my first new car. I went to a big city dealer who claimed he could undersell any other dealer. While we were working out the deal, the salesman asked if he could have his repair department drive my car around to the back for an evaluation to see just how much he could allow for a trade-in. I gave him the keys.
As it turned out, the deal wasn't competitive at all. I walked out of his cubicle and looked around for my "trade-in" car. Couldn't find it. The salesman assured me that the mechanic was still out for a test drive, so why not sit down and wait for him to return. Of course the salesman continued his press to make the sale.
After about half an hour more my car was still nowhere in sight. I asked the salesman if I might use the phone on his desk for a local call. He said yes, and I leafed though the phone book. Dialed up the local police department. "Hello, police department, I'd like to report a stolen car."
The salesman punched the button down on the phone cradle and stormed out of the cubicle. I had my car around front with the keys in it within about 60 seconds.
I walked into a place several years ago. I browsed around for a few minutes before this greasy, slick, $@:/$ in a yellowed "white" shirt asked if he could help me. He said before we start he needed my keys and $20.00. I headed for the door. The look on his face made it obvious he was ready for such a reaction. He made it to the door ahead of me. Then he looked at me like there was something wrong with me because I wouldn't give him $20.00 and my keys. I told him I just wanted to look and if I saw something I liked, we could talk about a deal. His answer was, "that's not how business is done anymore." He'd be happy to show me his inventory but he wanted my keys so his service department could evaluate my trade in. They wanted to determine what it was worth. I told him "I no longer do business that way anymore" and walked out the door. I'm not sure what the $20.00 was going to be for. I assumed he planned on buying lunch after we made the big deal.
My wife and I learned a trick long ago that still works, we take a valet key with us on one of those stretchy wrist things and our big key ring on my belt loop when they ask for our key she makes a big show of giving the salesman a single key while I jingle the keys on my belt. If we don't like the deal we leave get in our car and wait for them to bring the valet key to us if they don't in one minute we leave when they call us we tell them to mail us our key because we won't be back.
Since the last cars rolled off the assembly lines in 1969, little point remains in even thinking about
a car dealer. All they sell is ugly junk that is nowhere near the vehicles made long ago. So, why even
bother ? I will happily repair my old cars until I die. I never have to deal with meatheads dealers,
salesmen, and what I buy holds its usefulness value (don't give a rip about all that "blue book" scam)
or goes up in collector value WHILE it performs as the fun or useful vehicle I am not embarrassed to
be seen in.
For those who CHOOSE to swim in shark-infested waters, do not complain about getting eaten !
I hate 'em too.
The last two times I was forced to deal with a saleman I told him up front to forget the games and just give me the best price so guess what?
He plays the "I have to talk to the manager" card and goes somewhere........probably for a smoke........and comes back with a number..........but NOT the number I wanted.
I want THE number.......NOT the "dollars per month" number.
I never did get THE number.......but I'm pretty good good doing the math in my head so I bought the vehicle.........STILL pees me off though.
When I bought my 05 Dodge truck new I had also put a new cap on it. After about a year I didn't like that so called gutless Hemi engine and went to trade it in on my 06 Cummins I have now. I had talked to the salesman I had bought the 05 and we agreed on a price. I took my
05 back home and removed the cap and took it to the dealership and dropped it off. Two days later I go to pick up my new truck and all the salesman standing at the door and were giving me the evil eye. Confused I asked the finance guy what happened while I was signing paperwork and he told me that my salesman got fired because he did not include the cap in my deal. To this day I can't go back to that dealership because they still want to get even with me for getting their co worker fired.
Never had a opportunity to buy a new truck or car.
But there is a local used car dealer that sales good vehicles with a warranty. Even low end priced cars like my 96 cadi I bought from them had a 30 day warranty.total cost of the garage kept car, 3650$ out the door in april of 09 when I bought it. I had it a week and when I tried the air conditioning it didn't work. I went by there ,expecting to get the run around. Nope,the owner ask if I knew where a certain shop was, and I said yes. He said take it right now,they will fix it while you wait.The bill was around 200 bucks I think. they took care of it. There are some honest folks out there.Just gota find them.
I would consider CarMax if this dealer was not local with a good reputation.
New vehicles,you just take to much of a hit on value out the door on 1.
I went new vehicle shopping once and the salesman actually asked me for a $200 NON-REFUNDABLE deposit before he would seal the deal on a new car. Having had a brother in the car business, I knew this was completely illegal to ask that. So at that point I automatically scratched any chance of buying a car from them in my mind. However, because I wasted my time and money driving over there, I thought I would get some entertainment value out of the experience. So I haggled with the sales guy until he got to the point where he hit me up for the $200 again and said he couldn't talk to his sales manager without the non-refundable deposit. So I asked him if he was afraid. Blank stare...so I got up and walked toward the manager's office, but never made it that far before the sales guy changed his tune. At that point I turned on the sales guy and chewed his butt for engaging in illegal sales practices and told him I would contact the proper authorities. It was fun watching him sweat bullets, but after a minute or so of ranting I started to laugh at him and walked out. The guy was speechless. It was a wasted trip and morning, but it sure was a fun ride home.
My experience has been equal but different with a few colorful differences but my conclusion is that car salesmen are the former horse traders of old. They in fact inherited all of their tricks down through the ages. The things I find most amusing is their sales pitches like "never been a better time to buy" - "year end sales" due to overstock - year after year they have overstock - why not buy fewer cars next time since this happens each year. My funniest observance is the annual "tent sale". They move out of their air conditioned show room to make you a better deal in a 94 degree tent outside???? Since a tent or its rental costs them money, wouldn't their overhead go up during such a "sale". As a group it seems they would lie when the truth would serve them better. I hate buying a new vehicle and would rather have a root canal during the same time frame as an alternate experience. In truth as I have gotten older I have learned my way around. It is all about putting the customer on the defensive so I stay on offense. I love it when you go on a lot and ask if they have a certain motor in the proposed new truck you want and they ask "why do you want that motor?" which of course means "we don't have one of those" and thus will lie and tell you they have had a lot of trouble with that motor or some other BS. What works best is the silent treatment. I simply ignore questions - all of them - to their face. I am not there for an interview. It gets them on the defensive. When they ask questions I simply continue to view the car and say nothing. Its kinda fun and they aren't going to be on my new friend list anyway. I am lucky in that in suburban Chicago area there are literally a ton of dealers for the same model and it matters not which dealer you start with, they all attempt a scam and you end up buying from a dealer that will try to scam you next time since by then the whole sales force and manager will be different people. What is interesting is they play both sides - they typically scam the factory on warranty claims too. I have a retired friend who used to work for John Deer and investigated dealer fraud and his stories were really funny as to what various dealers tried to scam from their source. Integrity is rare but since we expect a scam and come armed, if there really is a good honest dealer out there we would never find him. The best slogan I ever saw at a swap meet would be the slogan that car dealers want you to believe namely "We screw the other guy and pass the savings on to you"
I bought my last new car 10 years ago (a smart car diesel). It was a high demand vehicle and there was no negotiating about the price. Everyone was paying full manufacturers price. I knew it was a lot of money but I just had to have that car.
I took solace in the fact that everyone who wanted one had to pay the same as me.
I have no regrets because I still have the car and it actually makes money for me now.
That being said, I have had some bad experiences and tend to by used from real people.
Still have a 1982 Mercedes diesel and a 1986 Toyota Landcruiser diesel bought that way.
I only like car shopping for Model T's. Guess that's why none of our "modern" cars are even built in this century! A new F150 with "goodies" is now pushing $45K which is absolutely insane.
One of the oldest members of the St Louis Model T club died four years ago just a few months short of his 100th birthday. His son owned a Ford dealership in Rolla MO, which is about 95 miles away. I bought my last three cars from him. Didn't deal with a salesman, but with the owner. He gave his dad's friends very good deals. (Actually, considering his reputation, I kind of suspect he probably gave everyone pretty good deals.) He sold the dealership earlier this year, so I'm not sure where I will look the next time I need a car.
Another one here. John Kelly, Auto Wholesalers, Hooksett, NH. Always ran a Sunday morning "automercial". My wife saw a Saab she wanted. Called, asked lots questions, got all the right answers and said we'd be up in an hour to look at the car. Was told they had lots if inquiries and if we wanted to be sure it was still available, they'd require a $200 CC deposit. Yup, got there and the car we put a deposit on was not "as advertised" on TV. We went in, confronted the owner who came off the hook. We didn't have to buy but we're weren't getting our deposit back. He threatened suing us for slander and calling the Hooksett Police. Never got our deposit back. Hope he's long since out of business!! Scumbag A-hole
The only new car I bought was in 1986 through the credit union. Dunno if I got a good deal, but it was no haggle. I haven't bought from any dealer since 1959. There's a lot of value in dealing with the real owner. Last car I bought was on Tbay, as I was looking for only a fully loaded 2004-6 Mercury Monterey. It worked out well, and I got all the records with it.
I see no reason to buy new.
Last year we bought 2 vehicles from dealers, and it really wasn't too painful. Both were used, no trade-ins, and we had our own financing all set to go before we set foot on the lot.
Both times we were looking for something very specific. My wife's car is a 2008 Pontiac G8 GT (Australian Holden badged as Pontiac) RWD sedan with a 361hp 6.0L V8 and with orange paint. 927 of them were painted orange, and less than 500 with the V8. I knew how rare it was, but the dealer didn't. My truck is a 2011 Silverado 1500 crew cab with the 403hp 6.2L and all the heavy-duty towing options with very few other options. Again, a rare truck as less than 1% had the 6.2L.
The internet has made finding vehicles much easier, and also knowing the price before you look at it. Good deals sell quickly. The difficult part is when you start looking for specific mechanicals like gear ratio as nobody lists that info in the ad, but it sure makes a difference when shopping for trucks. Then you're stuck relying on a dealer to locate one for you.
Looks like you are not the Lone Ranger, Gary....
You guys are in the wrong part of the world. Go buy a new car in a small town and expect that the guy is going to make some money. I'm driving a new Subaru Outback. Bought it Jan 9th from the local dealer. Didn't shop anywhere else. They had the one I wanted setting on the lot. Went in and talked to Curt, he showed me the invoice (which of course is not what they truly pay for the car) added $500 to that number and we wrote it up. Subaru financed it for .9%, would have done it with no money down although I did put some down. Drove off the lot in an hour with a new car, a dealer that will take care of me and a salesman that went home happy and can live in a town this size and not have to hide. I'm not in love with the seats in the Subaru but I have 27,000 miles on it in 11 months and the only thing I've done is 3 oil changes and an alignment. That's why I buy new, drive lots of miles, lots of bad two lane roads, work all the time and have a lot of things like auctions and concerts where I have to be there, have to be on time, haul a lot of stuff and am a lot of places where there is no rental car available for 100 miles in any direction. Can't afford to be broke down somewhere with an auction or concert crowd waiting for me to get a ride to get there and start the show.
They are not all like that but I've bought a couple new Ford pickups from Kim Mills in Fairfield. I know I could get a better deal somewhere else but every sports team in that little town has a Mills Ford logo on it some where, the benefit auctions for sick kids, sick adults, church fundraisers etc., etc., etc., that I've done up there all have a donation from Kim. That to me is worth more than a few bucks from a mega dealer. I did however, buy a new Dodge pickup a few years ago from the world's largest Chrysler products dealer in Kellog, Idaho. One price, same to everybody. They have a number, you either buy it or don't at that number. I bought the 6,891st Mopar sold there that year. The day I picked it up they delivered 110 new vehicles. Be 8 years ago tomorrow. They were a little over $13,000 back of MSRP. I didn't like the Fords those years and wanted to try a Hemi. Local Dodge dealer was from Oregon, a real jerk and no deals so I bought it in Idaho -- less than 300 miles away.
I like your stories about them taking the car for appraisal while you're out for a test drive. A few years ago Lithia -- out of Oregon -- bought the Dodge dealer in Butte, one of the toughest towns in the west - mining and construction town, over 100 bars in Silver Bow county and they all do pretty well. You walk in to some of them you'd better be able to take care of yourself. Anyway, the Lithia salesman pulled the "Appraisal" deal on me and I finally threatened to kick the salesman's butt and the sales manager's butt unless they brought my car back so I could leave. It ended up with the salesman up against the front door and the manager threatening to call the cops on me, I told him to go ahead and call and tell them to send an ambulance while they were at it because they were going to need one when I left, whether it was with the cops or alone but by the time the cops got there the salesman was going to need help more than I was. They managed to find my keys. I never went back but found out later this is pretty standard procedure for that place. They pulled that on a couple big old Butte boys who didn't take kindly to out of state salesmen selling cars in Butte anyway and got a little education about how things work in Butte. I dunno how true the story is but the story is that the salesman had their keys in his pocket so they just ripped his pants off him and got their keys, left him standing in the sales lot in his skivies. I dunno if it was the jerk who was trying to sell me a car I didn't want but if the story is true I hope it was that jerk. They didn't last long in Butte, maybe a couple years and sold the dealership.
When my wife needed a new car (she drives 100 miles a day) we went looking for a Prius for the fuel economy. Saw a "loss leader"ad for a dealership 60 miles away. Wound up with an upgraded model with the options we wanted for way less than the base models. It helps to buy on the last day of the quarter, especially after I figured out that they had "floored" the car for just under 3 months. They wanted it GONE!
I don't buy a new daily driver very often (every 20 years or so). When I do, I do as much price research as I can up front, then go to a local dealer and haggle just a bit, then close the deal.
I may pay a little more than I should up front, but I make up for it on the back end by keeping the car 20+ years and doing all my own service (except for free recall work, if any is needed).
You know that is 1 thing about this forum that I like. There is people here that are smart in alot of different things.
Perhaps it would be a good chance to ask a question I have had for a long time.
I aint wealthy. But I know folks who are.
They are worth millions.
But they finance their new cars.
I have ask a couple of them and they just mumble something about using the other guys money.
Well,what little money my dad has in the bank is earning less that 1/10th of a percent interest. It is not worth the hassle of paper work at tax time.
My power company stock is about the same. The dividends make a mess of my taxes.The interest on a car loan is much greater in most cases than the interest that money is drawing in most places.
So in saying that, what is the advantage for a person of substantial means to finance a car or truck?
Mack, I can answer a lot of questions about a lot of things but when you got to "Substantial means" I took myself out of the game. Never been in that situation.
Dealers. Grrrrr. I bring my 2011 back to the dealers for oil changes for 2 reasons 1: their competitively priced (for that) and 2: they have the records in case of warranty work but a while back they really burned my tail. If an air or cabin filter needs changing they tell me and I do it myself. They told me my rear brake pads were thin. I stopped on the way home and picked up a set. Next day I pulled it apart. When I opened the box I found the new pads were almost exactly the same thickness as the old ones. Pissed me off royally. I installed the new ones because it was apart. I raised heck in person and on line. No real satisfaction though. I imagine some poor buggers that don't know have gone for hundreds of $ for un needed "maintenance".
A friend is a sales trainer. He said the service reps at the local Toyota dealers make $150K a year selling services that are not needed.
A friend sold cars for awhile and he told me that when the dealing starts and the salesman leaves you in the little room to take the offer to his boss you start talking about what an a&%hole he is and seems queer as a three dollar bill.
On and on about how his mannerisms and squeaky voice are just womanly, etc.
He said the room is bugged and they're listening in.
Haven't tried it and probably never will but sounds good to me!
My newest car is an '82 VW diesel...works for me.
We never used it for buying a car for the reason I posted above, but Anja and I used to enjoy situations where the salesman makes a pitch to a married couple and then jumps into the discussion about their decision to reinforce some point or another. When it came to discussion time, we switched to Dutch. (There are salesmen who know other languages, of course, but if the salesman was someone in the St Louis area who understood Dutch, we would probably already know him.) That always threw the salesman off his plan since he had no idea what we were saying, which of us was for or against the purchase, etc.
I pay cash for everything. Made payments on things a few times, but no loan or interest-type financing. I don't
want to be on the hook to anyone for anything. If you ever want situations to go bad between people, bring money
and borrowing into the equation. Works every time !
But there is more to it than that. It is a matter of self control and part of the whole Duty and Honor thing I got from
the Marine Corps. I am building my house for cash. When I can afford materials, I buy them. It is a slow process,
but I owe nothing and it is ALL mine. Sure it would be more "pleasant" to be all finished and just making payments
to Joe Banker, but I just can't see the fiscal logic in 75% of my loan payment going to interest. That is bad math.
Maybe cars are different ? .... but since I have no use for modern vehicles - ugly and too overly complicated/expensive -
the issue never comes up. I apply the same "pay cash, pay as you go" thinking to cars as I do with anything else.
I'd rather buy an old DeSoto and restore it and then use it than make payments on some electronically driven plastic
new car. Simple as that. I want no part of the nuevo-thinking of Beemers, Range Rovers, a McMansion in a gated community
(that is no COMMUNITY at all) and all on credit ! Give me an old house, some dirt, gnarled trees, weathered wood and
rusty metal. Got no use for vinyl siding, backyard pool, Dish TV, a gym membership, or a new plastic car. It's all part
and parcel to why America is going down hill. And it all starts with a culture of debt. No thanks.
I hate the BS of dealing with car salesmen. Have walked out on several when they would only play their games and not give straight answers. The last three new purchases I've made (2006, 2009, and 2013) were done with fixed prices through either USAA or Costco buying services. I'd already figured out what I wanted for make, model, and options and had actual pain free buying experiences. Each of those purchases had included unsatisfactory experiences from different dealerships and sales reps. If/when I get the next new vehicle, it will be through a similar service (after I figure out in advance what I want). The price may not be the absolute best through these services but t's far better than other offers I've gotten for the same rigs.
There are reasons for buying new cars. I have an auction 650 miles away on Thursday morning Dec 4th in rural North Dakota. Couple hundred thousand dollars worth of Buffalo and Longhorns. I need to be there, be ready and not be sitting by the side of the road somewhere in eastern Montana where it is 100 miles to any car dealer, 200 to a place where you could rent a car. I have equipment to haul and a responsibility to the people who hired me as well as the people who are driving hundreds of miles to be at the auction. My car may quit but the odds of a new Subaru running faultlessly for 12 to 14 hours on two lane snow and ice covered roads as well as the last 15 miles of gravel to the auction site are a lot better than some 30 or 40 year old beater. I don't have time to worry about what it costs in a lot of situations. If I have a concert somewhere, the promoters are hung out hundreds and thousands of dollars. If there is a crowd they have given up their time and money to be there. They deserve to have me show up on time and do the show they paid to see. I personally think the $500 a month this new Subi is costing me is a pretty good investment. 11 months, 27,000 miles without a hiccup so far. Your mileage may vary and you may not be under the pressure I am to be some where when I said I would be there.
Tyrone, Put a name on the place so all can avoid this run around. Or just name the address or city.
The one and only time I financed a new car was when I bought my '01 Dodge Diesel truck. We negotiated the deal till I had the price I knew was fair. Then when it came to payment, I told them I thought I might pay cash. Since the truck had a large ticket price, I guess the dealer had assumed I would finance it, and they would get a kickback from the finance company. When I said cash, the salesmans face dropped.
Now at the time I knew Chrysler credit was offering zero % financing for a few "well qualified buyers" so I said to the salesman, If I qualify for the zero percent financing I might consider financing it. After more wrangling, now with the finance manager, who pushed hard for me to use their "favorite" finance company, "as I would never qualify" for Chrysler credit, I pulled out my checkbook and wrote out a check for the full amount. Reluctantly they went back to their little room to call my bank. When they returned the finance manager tore up my check and coldly informed me I had qualified for a Zero % loan. The salesman was clearly relived... Evidently they still got something from Chrysler credit but it didn't come out of my pocket.
Kevin, Baxter Chrysler Dodge in Omaha, Neb. They have a Fiat dealer, Ford/Lncoln in Omaha. Plus they are related to Performance Auto Group in Omaha. Baxter has several locations under other names in Independence Mo, Lincoln Neb, Counsel Bluffs Neb and Kansas City, Mo. Without research, you would never know Baxter is so huge.
We were there nearly 4 hours directed back and forth to their customer waiting room. In the four hours here and the emails since, we have yet to hear WE ARE SORRY for all this.
I keep checking their web site and amazingly, the phantom truck is still being advertised. ??? I agree the Nebraska BBB needs to be put on notice.
I agree with what Tim Wrenn said above. The price of a new car or truck, even a base unit, is getting ridiculous, so I'll probably never buy a new vehicle. You can buy a new travel trailer that you can live in, cheaper than you can buy a new fully loaded car or truck, and you can sleep and live in a travel trailer. The only vehicles that I know of that are slept in are welfare Cadillacs.
Sounds like there are many dodgy car salesmen out there.
Reading all this just makes me thankful I live where I live. I have never experienced the type of treatment you guys are talking about. Glad I haven't. I'd probably have wound up in jail after I got through showing my @$$ if someone tried the crap you guys are talking about. I am probably not the savviest buyer, but I don't get completely ripped off either. We've bought a lot of new cars. Yeah, I know they depreciate quickly, but I put a lot of miles on them and I don't want to risk getting someone else's problem. We've bought 4 vehicles from the same dealership in the last 7 years. The last two from the same salesman. The next one will likely come from there too. We seem to get a fair deal. They know I'm smart enough to see through typical salesman BS talk so they don't give me too much of it. We negotiate price, but we are both civil and we both go home happy.