Idles fine but...

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Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2014: Idles fine but...
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John Aldrich Orting Wa on Wednesday, December 10, 2014 - 08:57 am:

Dug out car that set for 2 years. Gas was drained so I put fresh gas and changed oil. Ran Sea Foam through it at an idle for 30 minutes or so and I believe that is why it is idling as good as it does. It idles fine but misses bad when you give it gas. Fuel air mixture changes don't help. Known good coils helped but wasn't a complete answer.


Starts very easy and when warm idles nicely.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Jelf, Parkerfield KS on Wednesday, December 10, 2014 - 09:13 am:

Round up the usual suspects. My first one would be fuel obstruction in the line or carb that lets enough gas through for idle but not for higher speed. Second would be timer.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Will Copeland - Trenton, New Jersey on Wednesday, December 10, 2014 - 09:15 am:

I agree with Steve


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Joseph A. Stearns on Wednesday, December 10, 2014 - 09:48 am:

I would add that if you take the carburetor apart and give it a good cleaning it likely will fix your problem. Good luck! Joe


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ken Todd on Wednesday, December 10, 2014 - 10:25 am:

You might also check for air obstruction in the carb or intake manifold.
2 years is plenty long enough for bugs to crawl in and make nests.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By G.R.Cheshire on Wednesday, December 10, 2014 - 10:41 am:

Mine did that when I didn't get the coil lid on properly one of the coils was touching the hold down springs idled fine but would pop and spit when you gave it gas


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Tomaso - Milton,WA on Wednesday, December 10, 2014 - 11:51 am:

Do a compression test, John - if it's been sitting that long without being turned over, it could be several things but try and eliminate the easy stuff first.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John Aldrich Orting Wa on Wednesday, December 10, 2014 - 12:22 pm:

I had already cleaned the timer which wasn't bad really. Was thinking carb myself.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Kevin Whelihan on Wednesday, December 10, 2014 - 11:46 am:

Fuel starvation. Check gas tank filter, clogs in the fuel line, sticking needle valve or float, or see if the main jet is still gummed up some. Don't be surprised if it could be a combination of stuff.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John Aldrich Orting Wa on Wednesday, December 10, 2014 - 07:02 pm:

Swapped carbs to a known good carb. No change.
Swapped coils to known good Ron Patternson coils. No change.
Drained sediment bulb. See what I found!


No change.

Pulled and blew out fuel line. No change

Disassembled and clean carb. No change.

Compression test with crappy gauge. 30 pounds across all 4 cylinders, twice.

Haven't checked the intake manifold for critters.

:-(


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hal Davis-SE Georgia on Wednesday, December 10, 2014 - 08:02 pm:

Weak mag?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Kevin Whelihan on Wednesday, December 10, 2014 - 08:06 pm:

Just for grins and giggles, check the spark plugs gaps. This is a long shot, but I have seen plugs with wide gaps idle and start OK, but fail to fire a richer mix under load when the pressure in the combustion chamber rises.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By mike_black on Wednesday, December 10, 2014 - 08:09 pm:

You did advance the spark after starting, didn't you?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mark Myers on Wednesday, December 10, 2014 - 11:01 pm:

Very new to the forum and T's... But I've about memorized the service manual. Based on what you've described the manual suggests checking for weak or sticking valve springs, or a leak in the manifold gasket. But, like I said, I'm pretty green...


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Paul Mikeska, Denver CO on Thursday, December 11, 2014 - 12:12 am:

I bet Mark nailed it. I would post an easy cure for sticking valves but the forum snark would attack.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John P Noonan on Thursday, December 11, 2014 - 12:19 am:

Paul, who cares what others think..please post away.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John Aldrich Orting Wa on Thursday, December 11, 2014 - 12:48 am:

Yes Paul post away!! I was wondering about the valves anyway.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Frank van Ekeren (Australia) on Thursday, December 11, 2014 - 12:50 am:

Sticking valves could be one thing, but go the other end of the scale and very worn valve guides will have the same running symptoms.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John Aldrich Orting Wa on Thursday, December 11, 2014 - 12:59 am:

Mike,
Spark was advanced and the timer rotated accordingly.
Failed to mention that I swapped out spark plugs. No change.
Running on battery and not mag. New battery with fresh charge. Mag is toast.

Cannot believe a match stick came out of the sediment bulb petcock drain.

I'm thinking valves.

Paul, FORUM snark be damned. Post your easy sticky valve fix please.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Paul Mikeska, Denver CO on Thursday, December 11, 2014 - 01:09 am:

John,

Unfortunately some topics will bring out the worst on this forum. In my humble opinion it drives off the long time lurkers, and/or new members to the T community that really want to post and learn about their cars. I am a casual member of the forum as my day job keeps me very busy. I look at the forum about twice a week and mostly enjoy it. I was a lurker for a couple of years before I posted on this forum. I wish that anyone could post questions without fear of snarks. My e-mail is paul mikeska at yahoo dot com. (no spaces) I check it about twice a week. Feel free to contact me there for some off forum advice from a guy that has an open mind and has been working on and driving T's for over 35 years.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Paul Mikeska, Denver CO on Thursday, December 11, 2014 - 01:47 am:

Frank is right. Worn out valves and/or broken or weak springs could produce the same results. If the T ran good a couple of years ago and has not run since then I think that we can rule out very worn valves, guides or spring tension. In this case valves will only stick if they are to tight in their guides, without lubrication OR there is crud on the stems that is gumming them up and keeping them from moving freely. The hard way is to disassemble and mechanically clean them. The easy way is to chemically clean and lubricate them. I would try to chemically clean before I broke down and mechanically cleaned them. I just don't want to open the can of worms for keeping and lubricating valves in a seldom used car in good condition. I have 4 running T's that have new valves, tight guides and I have never had a valve stick. Contact me off line.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By tillie the 15 on Thursday, December 11, 2014 - 05:50 am:

be sure good wiring from the battery. Also try a jump box. i almost tore my car apart ( again) with the same issues you are having. Smart guy asked me " your battery good?" sure it was practically brand new. hooked up the jump box for a minute---vrooom. its an easy thing to try......


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Kevin Whelihan on Thursday, December 11, 2014 - 05:55 am:

You might something with the sticky valves. The engine in my first "T" had some problems from being stored too long as well. In spite of the previous owner pouring generous amounts of MMO in the cylinders, 5 of the valves rusted an stuck in their guides. Another issue was that the local mice clan had robbed the previous owners bird seed supply and loaded up the muffler with it. In my frustration at not getting the thing fired up, I generously sprayed some starting fluid down the plug holes, replaced, the plugs, and turned on the ignition. The resulting explosion in the muffler plastered bird seed and couch stuffing all over the back of my garage. The engine never did start, so off it went to the rebuilder.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By n maver on Thursday, December 11, 2014 - 08:15 am:

The last thing that you would expect in the gas tank is a match!

Your car sure is a survivor :-)

N


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jon Crane on Thursday, December 11, 2014 - 08:30 am:

John
I fought the same battle with my Model A speedster. The old gas turned to a white sand mixture in the bottom of the tank. It looked like powdered glass. Car would start and idle, but quickly became fuel starved.
We ended up removing the tank and having a shop clean it out. Then once again cleaned all the filters, fuel lines and carburetor.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bud Holzschuh - Panama City, FL on Thursday, December 11, 2014 - 09:01 am:

Paul

Post away. I am reminded of the old saying "those who matter won't mind and those who mind don't matter".

I don't use water pumps, MMO or distributors, but I've nothing against those that do. Every man should do what he thinks best.

I think we would all like to know your method for freeing stuck valves.... I might need it some day!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dave Dufault on Thursday, December 11, 2014 - 09:10 am:

All right...I'll say it....Paul may not be back for a few days - (he said 2 x a week)....

John, go ahead, try the recommended amount of MMO - not too much, not too little - the bottle lacks quantity, as I remember....I think that others have said 1 oz per 10 gallons or so. A lot easier to do than all the things you've done so far....and although some will say it is a waste of money, IF it cures your problem, it will be worth a LOT!

Good Luck !


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dave Barker - Dayton, OH on Thursday, December 11, 2014 - 09:24 am:

Dave and John - The label on the bottle is a peel-away type, like some OTC medications. On the back of the bottle, find the little white tab at the lower left corner of the label that reads "Lift Here" and peel it back, revealing instructions for how much to add to your fuel (label says 4 ounces for every 10 gallons of gas or diesel).


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dave Dufault on Thursday, December 11, 2014 - 09:33 am:

Ah soooo

Thanks Dave. Had not noticed that before!

(Senility, maybe?)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Tomaso - Milton,WA on Thursday, December 11, 2014 - 09:36 am:

The match was probably used to see how much gas they had left in the tank !

Run a compression check as I previously suggested, John.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John F. Regan on Thursday, December 11, 2014 - 09:40 am:

I too have had crud in the gas tank but that was when I first got the car. I ended up just installing a new tank after repeated cleaning didn't get it clean enough. The tank had baffles in it that wouldn't allow me to see inside to where the issue was. I wondered after all of the flushing of the line and sediment bulb and swapping the carb - did you actually check the flow then at the carb drain cock to make sure the gas flow didn't just plug right back up like mine did before I swapped tanks?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dave Dufault on Thursday, December 11, 2014 - 09:44 am:

Relative to Steve's post...
see:
http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/411944/491665.html?1415259822

30# may be the issue.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Tomaso - Milton,WA on Thursday, December 11, 2014 - 10:10 am:

My apologies, John - I didn't see your previous post stating you did a compression test. Did you squirt a little oil in each cylinder to see if the compression raised ?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jerry VanOoteghem on Thursday, December 11, 2014 - 10:44 am:

John A.

Take off the tappet cover and check your valve lash. Some styles of the adjustable tappets do not hold their adjustment and back down. This will cause the problem you describe.

While you've got the cover off, grab the stems of the intake valves and see how much you can wobble them from side-to-side. Excessive intake valve stem clearance can create a vacuum leak.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Stan Howe Helena, Montana on Thursday, December 11, 2014 - 11:08 am:

John, pull the plugs, turn the engine over by hand and when each valve comes up spray some carb cleaner under the head of the valve so it cleans the varnish off the valve stem. Buy good carb cleaner, I personally like the Johnson brand but it isn't sold everywhere. You can pull the manifolds to do it but it's easy to see in the plug hole and squirt cleaner under the head. Then hook up a little tank with a quart of so of gas and a cup of Lucas fuel treatment -- any Autozone or O'Reilly's has it -- and run that through the carb. It will free up the valves, dissolve the junk and make it smoke a little. The reason to use a little tank is so you know the fuel supply is good and that it is clean. Without starting any PM's, in my opinion MMO was probably good in years past but today there are so many better quality products it is a waste of money to spend it on something like MMO when Lucas and other modern products are there. I run Lucas in everything I own from my motorcycles and lawn mowers to my new Subaru Outback. Old pickups, newer pickups, tractors, swather, anything that burns gas. Worth every dime it costs. And Paul is right.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John Aldrich Orting Wa on Thursday, December 11, 2014 - 11:30 am:

Steve,
Did not squirt any oil for the compression test. Test was done dry.

Dave,
Was wondering about that but compression is equal across. Numbers one and 4 bled back off quickly.

General consensus seems to be fuel flow or valves or both.

I am getting good flow out of the carb drain hole and it is new fresh gas that I put both Sea Foam and MMO in.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Tomaso - Milton,WA on Thursday, December 11, 2014 - 11:48 am:

The theory of squirting oil in the cylinder (after the initial test indicating low compression) is to determine if the low compression is from piston rings or due to the valves. If the compression raises, one can assume the ring to wall interference is incorrect, stuck ring, etc. If the compression remains constant (low), one can assume there is a valve to seat contact issue.

Did you rule out a "bad" spark plug ? Or short out each cylinder while running to determine which cylinder might be causing the grief ?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Norman T. Kling on Thursday, December 11, 2014 - 12:02 pm:

You don't say why the car sat for 2 years. Were you the owner of the car when it started to sit? Is the previous owner available to ask why it was parked? Maybe this problem is why the car was not driven for 2 years.

With 30 lbs compression, it is right on the edge, but since it idles and presumably smoothly, it would seem to me that the problem is a fuel related problem. An intake manifold leak would affect the lower speeds more than the higher speeds, but it could be that the fuel mixture is enriched to compensate for the air leak. Then when the engine is speeded up, it would be too rich.

Here is what I would suggest that you do. Instead of substituting known good parts such as coils and carburetor, that you reverse the procedure and find a friend who would let you switch your parts to his car and see if his runs well or if it runs like yours does. That way you would have a good idea as to whether your parts were good.

With sticking valves, it is possible that at idle, they do close, but at faster speeds, they are so sticky that they remain open. You would have nothing to lose if you try MMO. The worst it could do is cost you the price for a bottle with no resulting improvement, but it could give you a fix if it is sticking valves causing your problem. Valve troubles are usually best fixed by pulling the head and valve cover and removing the valves and cleaning them up and re-grinding or replacing the valves and maybe the springs too.

Have you been able to trace your misfiring to one or two cylinders? If so, you can concentrate on parts which affect those particular cylinders.

Here is another thing that is possibly causing your problem. Carbon tracing on the wood of the coil box. When the accelerator is opened, the compression is higher than at idle. It takes a stronger spark to jump the gap at the spark plug. The spark will jump the easiest pathway, which could be a carbon trail rather than the spark plug.

Another thing you can do, which could possibly detect an electrical problem would be to start your car at night with all lights out and the hood open, look inside for jumping sparks. You should see no sparks except for a weak spark at the coil points, and you would only see that spark with the lid off the coil box.

I wish I were closer so that I could try to help you. If I remember Orting is on the rainy side of Washington, so dampness could very well be causing your problems either causing electrical problems or corrosion in the fuel system.

Good luck I hope you find the cause and it is easy to fix.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John Aldrich Orting Wa on Thursday, December 11, 2014 - 01:12 pm:

Steve,
I did find and replace a bad spark plug the very first thing.
Norm,
Don't know why the car was parked but I can find out. Might not hurt! At this point I suspect it was the result of a divorce (car was hers) and her finances are limited. And yes, Orting is on the "soggy side". The coils came out REALLY hard of both cars so I am sure there is some moisture absorption.
Stan,
I'll give that a shot. Like I said numbers one and 4 bled off quickly during the compression test.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mike Kossor on Thursday, December 11, 2014 - 01:30 pm:

Norman has a great suggestion regarding the coil box if it is wood. Ignition variation at low idle is more forgiving and less notable at low RPM. I had some subtle, intermittent engine performance at times. I tried misting the coil box with water from a spray bottle at night and saw arcing/burning wood just under the surface near with the timer terminals, not the high voltage coil secondary terminals. The car started running poorly then stalled completely after a few more applications of water mist. Removed the old wood (hated to do it appearing original) and replaced it with Black Delrin plastic which appears very similar to the original black painted wood. No more intermittent performance issues.


I also wanted to comment on another topic in this thread; reluctance to post due to fear of being attacked by Forum Snarks (aka Trolls). This forum is a fantastic Model T resource but depends completely on the willingness of users to participate and share information. Unfortunately, there have been a few who have repeatedly abused their privilege of posting here, deliberately provoking emotional responses and fighting among users. Such behavior does discourage participation; seriously diminishing the value of the forum for everyone. Please do not let this happen! If someone repeatedly behaves inappropriately that makes you reluctant to participate, send a Private Message (PM) to the forum Webmaster, Chris and alert him of the situation.

Participants who repeatedly abuse the privilege of using this forum can and should have their posting privilege suspended.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By harvey cash on Thursday, December 11, 2014 - 04:05 pm:

Paul PLEASE post your easy cure for sticking valves.I am a relative new member but like you hesitate to post because of a few. Mike Kossor's post about those who abuse the forum privilege is good. I have a question about fuel line placement but am hesitant to post. Maybe if we all band together we can quietly shame the snark's out.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bob Jablonski on Thursday, December 11, 2014 - 04:14 pm:

Harvey:

Just happened to check the Forum at work..... I would use about 8 ounces of Marvel Mystery Oil to the crankcase oil and about the same in the gas tank to 9 gallons of gasoline. Then go for a good ride.... valve action should be normal after a 30 minute run.... for ice cream... or a bowl of chili. LOL Your dietary preferences subject to change.

Looking forward to Paul's suggestions


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bob Gruber- Spanaway, Wash. on Thursday, December 11, 2014 - 06:00 pm:

I used to post here a lot.
Not so much any more....tired of nasty remarks.
Still enjoy lurking.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Harold Schwendeman - Sumner,WA on Thursday, December 11, 2014 - 06:12 pm:

Paul - "Sticks & stones" and all that! Don't worry about those few "nay sayers" or nasty remarks,.....the more you post, the more you and the rest of us learn about who to pay attention to and who to disregard.

Please post your feelings about how you'd go about diagnosing and more importantly about "solving" this troubleshooting problem. You're one of the experienced guys who's posts I pay attention to, so as others have said, please share your expertise with not only John Aldrich, but with all of us! Thanks,.....harold


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jeff Hood on Thursday, December 11, 2014 - 06:26 pm:

With all of that gunk and a match stick in the sediment bulb, the fine brass screen may be clogged causing the fuel starvation issue. Paul's cure for sticky valves is probably (and a recent, very long, thread is why he won't mention it) MARVEL MYSTERY OIL!

TAKE COVER!!!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John Aldrich Orting Wa on Thursday, December 11, 2014 - 07:31 pm:

I wondered about the screen in the sediment bowl myself. It is the only part of the fuel system I didn't inspect. Of course I didn't wonder about it until I had it all back together!

I haven't done anything to it today as I had a DR appt in the middle of the day and was out clearing down branches due to the recent heavy rain and wind. Probably should have waited till tomorrow as tonight is round three.

I'm with you Harold. Sticks and stones and all that. Personally I do not mind being corrected. I'm married and actually quite accustomed to it!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Paul Mikeska, Denver CO on Thursday, December 11, 2014 - 07:42 pm:

I have never used MMO but I have been adding 2 cycle oil to the gas for more than 20 years. I don't know how it works and don't care but it keeps the gas fresh. One of my T's has three year old gas in it and the gas still smells good. I am sure that most have smelled sour gas. If you look into the tank the gas is clear with a very light blue tint. The T will start right up and runs great. I have never had a stuck valve in any of my T's since using it. I put about 4 ounces in a tank full of gas. When this comes up on the forum and I post it I get PM messages from others that use it but do not want to post anything on the forum due to the snarks. Bottom line it works and I am going to continue to use it. Just my .02


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By harvey cash on Thursday, December 11, 2014 - 07:48 pm:

Thanks Paul, Please don't stop posting, we need the sage advise from wise members like yourself.Harv.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Colin Knowles - Moncton, New Brunswick on Thursday, December 11, 2014 - 07:53 pm:

Well I don't care what anyone says so here it goes and it works. Start up the car. Get some rev to the engine if you can and start squirting automatic transmission fluid in the carburetor.Lots of smoke! It will free up just about everything in the engine including carbon. Used it on Model A's, Dodge omni and lawnmowers. All still running except for the Dodge. Went to rust heaven!
Hope this gets your T going.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Chris Cook on Thursday, December 11, 2014 - 07:57 pm:

What type of timer are you running John? The reason I ask is I had a similar situation with a high mileage Anderson timer and found the flap to be worn just enough to cause a misfire at speed. Looked at everything else before discovering the problem. Chris.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Harold Schwendeman - Sumner,WA on Thursday, December 11, 2014 - 08:24 pm:

Thanks Paul,....and you too as well Colin! Kinda' thought your idea had something to do with some type of oil added to the gasoline, and I agree. I think it's a great idea, and it certainly can't hurt. One of the "naysayers" arguments has been that oil in the fuel causes the engine to "carbon up", but frankly, you guys, just by what you just posted have pretty well blown that argument out of the water too!

I guess the only thing I would say that might be construed as "negative" (and I don't mean it that way, 'cause again, it really can't hurt) is that some type of lube added to the fuel will help much more for INTAKE valve guides than it would for hotter EXHAUST valve guides as it's cool fuel/oil vapor going by the intake valves, but it's hot gasses and fire going by the exhaust valve guides. But then again, that smokey exhaust you mentioned Colin actually does contain a bit of oil vapor, 'cause that's what's causing the smoke! So what can it hurt, right? And it might just do some good by leaving a bit of oily deposits on the exhaust valve stems/guides, etc.

O.K.,....I'm thru' "expounding",....FWIW,......harold


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Harold Schwendeman - Sumner,WA on Thursday, December 11, 2014 - 08:26 pm:

Thanks Paul,....and you too as well Colin! Kinda' thought your idea had something to do with some type of oil added to the gasoline, and I agree. I think it's a great idea, and it certainly can't hurt. One of the "naysayers" arguments has been that oil in the fuel causes the engine to "carbon up", but frankly, you guys, just by what you just posted have pretty well blown that argument out of the water too!

I guess the only thing I would say that might be construed as "negative" (and I don't mean it that way, 'cause again, it really can't hurt) is that some type of lube added to the fuel will help much more for INTAKE valve guides than it would for hotter EXHAUST valve guides as it's cool fuel/oil vapor going by the intake valves, but it's hot gasses and fire going by the exhaust valve guides. But then again, that smokey exhaust you mentioned Colin actually does contain a bit of oil vapor, 'cause that's what's causing the smoke! So what can it hurt, right? And it might just do some good by leaving a bit of oily deposits on the exhaust valve stems/guides, etc.

O.K.,....I'm thru' "expounding",....FWIW,......harold


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Harold Schwendeman - Sumner,WA on Thursday, December 11, 2014 - 08:28 pm:

Dang it! Did it again! Got side-tracked during my proof reading, space adjusting, etc, etc, and double posted AGAIN! Sorry 'bout that!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mike Garrison on Thursday, December 11, 2014 - 08:46 pm:

I remember my dad force feeding oil down or in the case of his Farmall F12 up through the carburetor. The thing would smoke like a beast and a high pitched squeal could be heard but it would loosen stuck valves. I don't recall it being a permanent fix but I think the 2 cycle oil in the gas tank can be a great idea.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Paul Mikeska, Denver CO on Thursday, December 11, 2014 - 09:09 pm:

I remember using the ATF down the carburetor trick when I was in High School. Lots of smoke. Neighbor called Fire Department. Parents not happy. The car did run better!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mike Garrison on Thursday, December 11, 2014 - 09:12 pm:

Hey Paul, I can believe they would call the fire department. I always accused the old man of fogging for mosquitoes. The fact the engine ran better was more collateral improvement to his original intent.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Paul Mikeska, Denver CO on Thursday, December 11, 2014 - 09:20 pm:

By the way I have found no evidence that 2 Cycle oil carbons up the motor. Over the years I have had the heads off of all of my T's for one reason or another. None of them had much of any carbon deposits


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bill Vaughn on Friday, December 12, 2014 - 03:12 pm:

On my 26 Fordoor, I had the idles (ok) but severe lack of power when trying to accelerate. Lots of hissing, backfire, when trying to accelerate. Turned out to be valve spring keeper pin had either worked its way out of the hole in the valve or had broken. This happened to me on two different occasions. It was my fault....I hadn't turned the valve spring bottom washer to the proper place to seat the valve keeper pin. Hope this helps.
Bill V.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Harold Schwendeman - Sumner,WA on Friday, December 12, 2014 - 03:37 pm:

Hey John - I think I've got your high-speed "miss" thing figured out! Fouled plugs! Yer' let'n the damned thing idle too long! Hell, it's been, what,.....almost three days now!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John Aldrich Orting Wa on Friday, December 12, 2014 - 08:08 pm:

Chris,
It's an old Anderson timer. Thought about replacing it but haven't... yet.

Sprayed brake cleaner at each "raised valve" through the spark plug holes today. Didn't seem to help any. They all went up and down but obviously no measurements were taken this way.

Also pulled the sediment bulb and disassembled that. Beautifully clean with nearly zero sediment on the screen. Bottom of the fuel tank is bright shiny galvanized although the exterior shows it is probably a replacement tank/not original issue. SO.. the fuel system is/has been clean from the beginning.

At this point I think I am leaning with those who feel it is timing or in the ignition somewhere. Work on that next.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Harold Schwendeman - Sumner,WA on Friday, December 12, 2014 - 08:53 pm:

John - Have you tried that trick of running the engine in the absolute pitch black dark and watch for any errant sparks?

Actually, there could be arcing where you can't see it. I keep wondering about the wood in that coil box. Did you look for carbon tracks in the wood as evidence of arcing? Maybe if you don't want to go to the trouble and expense of replacing the wood in the coil box with one of John Regan's plastic kits right now, you might try drying out the wood in the coil box thoroughly with one of Renea' hair driers. I re-read this whole thread and from what I saw, the only thing that seemed to change the misfiring any was when you were messing with the coils. Steve Tomaso mentioned trying to isolate which cylinder might be causing the problem by shorting out the coils one at a time; did you do that? If you can find one coil that seems to make a difference, swap that coil with another and see if the cylinder that's acting up follows the coil swap.

Yeah, I know,.....easy to be an "armchair quarterback", but I know how frustrating this sort of thing can be. But I think you're getting close when you mentioned that you think it's in the ignition somewhere. Hey, maybe borrow someone's timer and swap out that worn Anderson temporarily. Well, keep messing around with things and you'll find it,......harold


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Harold Schwendeman - Sumner,WA on Friday, December 12, 2014 - 08:56 pm:

John - Have you tried that trick of running the engine in the absolute pitch black dark and watch for any errant sparks?

Actually, there could be arcing where you can't see it. I keep wondering about the wood in that coil box. Did you look for carbon tracks in the wood as evidence of arcing? Maybe if you don't want to go to the trouble and expense of replacing the wood in the coil box with one of John Regan's plastic kits right now, you might try drying out the wood in the coil box thoroughly with one of Renea' hair driers. I re-read this whole thread and from what I saw, the only thing that seemed to change the misfiring any was when you were messing with the coils. Steve Tomaso mentioned trying to isolate which cylinder might be causing the problem by shorting out the coils one at a time; did you do that? If you can find one coil that seems to make a difference, swap that coil with another and see if the cylinder that's acting up follows the coil swap.

Yeah, I know,.....easy to be an "armchair quarterback", but I know how frustrating this sort of thing can be. But I think you're getting close when you mentioned that you think it's in the ignition somewhere. Hey, maybe borrow someone's timer and swap out that worn Anderson temporarily. Well, keep messing around with things and you'll find it,......harold


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Paul Mikeska, Denver CO on Friday, December 12, 2014 - 09:14 pm:

John Aldrich,

You have received a lot of good advice here on this forum. I you lived close I would be happy to help. That being said are you a member of a local T club? If so I bet that there are quite a few local T guys that will gladly help you. I find that the vast majority of T guys will go way out of their way to help. When I was much younger and a newbie in the hobby a lot of experienced guy's went out of their way to help me!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Paul Mikeska, Denver CO on Friday, December 12, 2014 - 10:36 pm:

John Aldrich,

I very much like the personal quote on your profile. Most of us should apply it to this forum. It would be a better place!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jerry VanOoteghem on Friday, December 12, 2014 - 10:36 pm:

John,

Did you have a look at the valve lash, as I suggested?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John Aldrich Orting Wa on Saturday, December 13, 2014 - 01:05 am:

Jerry,
Not yet but it is on the list.
Thanks Paul. :-) And yes, I am a member of a local T club but I live quite a ways out. I know a T GURU who also cruises this FORUM and I have to but ask for his help. He to is a member of our club and has more or less been my mentor since I got my first T in 2007.

Harold, see you tomorrow and no, haven't run the car in pitch black but it sounds like a project for Sunday!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David Menzies on Thursday, December 18, 2014 - 10:57 am:

A simple diagnostic test is to squirt some water at the base of the spark plugs and along the intake manifold. Leaking plugs will bubble and the engine will flutter if manifold is leaking, try it it's cheap.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John Aldrich Orting Wa on Thursday, December 18, 2014 - 11:37 am:

Dave,
I actually squirted wd40 and discovered one leaking plug but it wasn't leaking much.

SAGA is over (for now). The guy who wanted to buy the car wanted to fix it himself so he has already taken it home. Not what I wanted to do but he is in fact twice the mechanic I am so how could I argue. His spouse is quite happy about it and is already talking upholstery!

Wanted to thank everyone here for their advice and support. I am thinking it is the timing some where. Suppose to have a steel timing gear on it.

WAS parked due to funds. Had several people tell me how good it ran "when parked".

Thanks Folks.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ken Todd on Thursday, December 18, 2014 - 11:50 am:

" It idles fine but misses bad when you give it gas."

Sounds like spark plug problem to me.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John F. Regan on Thursday, December 18, 2014 - 11:56 am:

Now there is a solution to the problem that is not often advised - sell it! :-)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jerry VanOoteghem - SE Michigan on Thursday, December 18, 2014 - 01:17 pm:

John A.,

How can you do this to us? It's cruel that we'll probably never know what caused this.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Seth from NC on Thursday, December 18, 2014 - 02:10 pm:

For real - cliff hanger ending there man. I kept checking this thread to see if the problem got resolved.


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