Have a Ford Price List of Parts for Model T, the !st issue,in it a hinge is listed in the floor board section, P/N 1043. I have never any early cars with a floor board hinge can any one explain? donaldw
Donald, the first Model T had an access door on one floor board. I don't know hinges were used but suspect they were.
From "Ford Times, pages 1 & 3, November 15, 1908:
Courtesy "Google Books"
Rob.. Thank you for that picture. I was once told that on some of the early 09 T,s that the wire terminals came out the bottom of the coil box like the NRS cars did. This picture would prove otherwise.
My #980 has the original flour boards and it does not have an access door. The flour boards are held in place with screws on each end of each board though.
That floor mat look's white to me? Bud.
Are the two levers brass plated? Great photo!
Yes, the levers were brass plated steel – ref: http://www.mtfca.com/encyclo/A-B.htm#brake1 see Brake Lever. Note it doesn’t address the reverse lever – but it is the same shade in the photos and from other information it would have also been brass plated steel.
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Thanks Hap. I've seen reference to that before in odd places. Is it known more precisely when the change took place.
Sorry, I didn't mean to hijack the thread!
Yes, the mat does look white, or more likely gray. The firewall intrigues me too. The coilbox appears to look like wood grain while the firewall shows reflection, as if it is painted, not wood finish? I suspect this is the same early T photographed at Piquette and sometimes called T number one or a prototype. Maybe the same car used by Henry Ford on his hunting trip and photographed muddy around Oct 1, 1908?
A closer look at the coilbox/firewall:
Notice the coilbox wires do not come out from under the box, even at this early date. If any cars did use that type of box/coils, I'd bet it was the prototypes so they could be run for testing. The under-the-box style was Kingston's generic setup, made and sold through at least 1914 by accessory and parts stores.
Thank's Rob!! I had never saw a picture or reference to the small door.Nice ad about not getting under the new Ford!!Bud.
The MTFCI Judging Guidelines 6th Edition list them as brass plated steel with the change occurring to painted steel after Feb 1911. Ref page 4 of the 1911 section factory number 862B. Those guidelines are available from the vendors as well as the MTFCI.
While not stated in the guidelines many of the changes in the Model T had some over lap when both the older style part and the newer style part were both being used. If you want a more precise date, you could request copies of the Change Card for factory number 862B. That request can be made to the Benson Ford Archives. For an idea of what the Benson Ford Archives have please see Trent’s excellent article at: http://jupiter.plymouth.edu/~trentb/HFMGVStacks/Stacks.html Note that when Trent wrote that it was called the Henry Ford Museum and Greenfield Village – thus his abbreviation HFMGV. They changed the name since that article and the entire complex is “The Henry Ford” and the Benson Ford Archives are included in that organization. Their web site is: http://www.thehenryford.org/research/index.aspx .
That change card and/or drawing would give the date the change was specified. But -- it often took a little time for the supplier to change to the new requirements. I.e. it wouldn't be done on the same day 99.99% of the time. What about the other 0.01% of the time? Sometimes the change cards or drawings were brought up to date with what was already happening on the factory floor. But that is the exception and not the norm.
And yes, it is also documented that Ford used older parts at different times. A very good illustration of that is on page 497 of Bruce McCalley's (R.I.P.) book "Model T Ford" where he is listing the information from every 100th shipping document. In the middle of Jun 1911 he commented " '1910 running boards' used on a number of cars." And specifically they were listed on car #59,400 which was manufactured Jun 17, 1910 and on car #59,500 which was manufactured on Jun 19, 1911.
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Thanks again, Hap. I have the Judging Guidelines and that must be where I saw it and is why I asked because I was thinking of it in the back of my mind as a later change. So, despite it being listed as a change between the '10 to '11 model year, that would also make it an early '11 model year feature, would it not?
Original hinged floorboards from 1909 #314.
For Rob -- great photo. I haven’t looked at the Ford Times on Google for a while. They have the Oct 1908 going into 1909 at: https://books.google.com/books?id=ZgAZAQAAIAAJ&printsec=frontcover&source=gbs_ge_summary_r&cad=0#v=onepage&q&f=false When I last looked at them I was focusing on the pre-Ts.
For Kim – thank you so much for posting the photos of the original hinged floorboards from #319! I may have missed it, if so please point me to the article on car#319. And if there isn’t one yet, I know many of us would love to read one about it!
For all – remember that during the first several months of the Model T production many changes were made. For example within the first two weeks of production the front frame spacer T-319 was changed – see Trent’s article “Ford No1” photo 7 near the bottom of the posting at: http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/411944/492557.html?1415528250 . Another example is: The first, probably no more than 15 Model Ts, had TWO (2) internal oil lines. That second line was obsoleted Nov 3, 1908 see Trent’s posting at: http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/80257/84036.html?1236778869
A later example: The cylinder head bolts were just 3/8-inch diameter in the first 500 engines, and then increased to 7/16-inch diameter. The first 500 cylinder heads had no identification cast into them, while the later early heads had “Ford Motor Company” cast in on the top surface. was the redesign of the cylinder head [ref: http://www.mtfca.com/encyclo/1909-10H.htm scroll down to engine.] And of course around serial number 850 or so the two lever transmission was replaced by the three pedal version. So many things were changed during this time frame – it was still a very new car and they were still working the bugs out of it.
For Donald – you started the thread with: “I have never any early cars with a floor board hinge can any one explain? Donaldw” In addition to Kim’s excellent photos I already looked up the one below so I will include it also. The article on car #220 in the Jan-Feb 1967 “Vintage Ford” on page 21 had the photo #15 shown below [used by permission] and it clearly shows the same style hinges on the floor boards that Kim also has.
Those were taken before the car was restored. The comment with the photos stated, “The floor boards are two piece, hinged at their junction. The trim plates are original, but the mat is not.” So at least on car #220 it appears that the hinges were located between the bottom floorboard and the floorboard that rested on it. I don’t have information on when those hinges were discontinued but it is possibly listed on the drawing and/or change card at the Benson Ford Archives. And the last of the two lever cars would be one possible time for them to go away as the floor boards would need to be updated for the additional pedal. Perhaps someone has additional information on that?
For Don – you commented: “I was once told that on some of the early 09 T,s that the wire terminals came out the bottom of the coil box like the NRS cars did. This picture would prove otherwise.” I would offer the photo proves that on that car they did not come out the bottom of the coil box. I like what Bruce McCalley said concerning the 1917 Rip Van Winkle Model T. It was something to the effect that the photos show how this one Ford was produced in 1917 [and it had a dealer installed speedometer]. There often times were variations. Note in the same Jan-Feb 1967 “Vintage Ford” article about car #220 on page 29 photo #45 it shows car #220 had the Heinze Coil box like the ones used on the Model S Fords. [The Model N used a Splitdorf coil box].
The caption reads: “Identical to the Heinz no. 1540 coil box assembly used in the Models N-R-S, the early coils had porcelain insulators mounted at the bottom and spark plug and other wires entered the engine compartment under the dashboard rather than through it.” We would not want to say that they all had that type of coil box just because it was found on one car. The MTFCI Judging Guidelines 6th edition for 1909 state, “Kingston Model 4200 with brass brackets which extended around the sides of the box….” were the style used. And it appears to be a Kingston Model 4200 version shown in the original photo posted by Rob with the inspection hole in the floor boards.
But in the introduction to the judging guidelines they state, “Obsolete parts were never discarded, just used up until supplies ran out. Also, changes seldom occurred simultaneously at the various assembly plants and branches. All of these factors create challenges to a restore trying to complete an “authentic” and original restoration.” So could Ford have used an “obsolete” Model S coil boxes on one or more of the very early Model Ts? Sure. But did they is the harder question to answer. Gail Rodda has a new Model T Parts Identification Guide out dealing with the first 2500 cars. I have not yet obtained a copy but I hope Santa will bring me one next year. He may have updated the information contained there or confirmed it is still the best he currently has. If someone has a copy of that would they please check to see what he says concerning the coil boxes on the early Ts? But in his Vol 1 version of his “Model T Ford Parts Identification Guide” under coil boxes, on page 39 he has the Heinze coil box with the wires coming out the bottom as shown on car #220. He states, “This style box was used on the first 1909 Model Ts until about car #300.” But the photo Rob posted was published in the Nov 15, 1908 “Ford Times.” And I believe it is probably a lower number than car #300. Why? Because in Trent’s “Early Ford Database” he has Model T #108 being shipped Dec 1, 1908. And he doesn’t list the 300 numbers shipped until Jan 1909. Remember that is only about 22% of the serial numbers – but still representative.
Bruce addressed that on page 14 of his 1994 copyrighted book where he comments that the Heinze coil box with the wires coming out the bottom as well as the Kingston 4200 were both used on the very early cars and only the Kingston was used after car #2500. But in Bruce’s update CD version he changed the wording to: COIL BOX ASSEMBLY: Kingston 4200. Note: When first discovered, car 220 had the Heinze, coil with high tension (spark plug) terminals on the underside, a continuation of the type used in the N-R-S Fords. While believed to have been original, the coil may have been changed sometime in the past.” So perhaps Bruce was changing his mind on that one? Clearly more information would be welcomed. Especially early photos that included the two levers and the coil box showing. The very few I have most do not show the coil box at all. The few photos I have that show the coil box clearly enough have the Kingston 4200 that does NOT have the wires coming out under the coil box. I looked but I did not find any photos of the engine side dash board of car #220. When found did it have the holes drilled for the Kingston 4200 coil box?
And as always more questions than answers. On page 3 of the Nov 1, 1908 “Ford Times” from Google Books at: https://books.google.com/books?id=ZgAZAQAAIAAJ&printsec=frontcover&source=gbs_ge_summary_r&cad=0#v=onepage&q&f=false it has the following photograph or illustration. (It is very detailed if it is an illustration):
Notice how the spark plug wires appear to be routed above the exhaust manifold. Was that common practice on the early two-lever two-pedal cars? Could that be showing the wires collected from underneath a Heinze coil box as opposed to those coming of the back of a Kingston coil box? Or is it really just an illustration and not a photo and it was not done that way for either coil box?
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Hap, thanks for the information that you provide, i know it takes a lot of time to provide all the info you do and it is much appreciated.
As you stated, #220 was found with that early Heinze coil box with the wires running out the bottom, i don't think that coil box is original to that car. #220 still has that box to this day and it runs well with it. I'm pretty sure the switch on that coil box has 3 positions, bat1, off and batt2. I don't think Ford would have sent that box out with out a mag position of that switch, as the Kingston 4200 has.
In Gails book on 1909 T's, he only mentions the Kingston 4200, but his book deals primarily with the 1909 production cars.
I think the best way to answer the question is to get the releases for the 2 piece dash shield and see if that tells the first date of use. John Regan may have that information.
I have been able to locate the drawing for the Model T dash during the prototype era at the Benson Ford Research Center. This early drawing shows that an NRS style coil box with the 4 spark plug wires coming out the bottom of the coil box, then passing through 4 relatively small holes in the dash, just like an NRS car, was contemplated for use in the production Model Ts. However, there was a major redesign of the car that took place on about June 20, 1908, and the NRS style coilbox was replaced with a more familiar one with 10 terminals passing out the back of the box and through corresponding wholes in the firewall.
A number of other changes in the control system on the car were made at the same time. These were the last major changes that took place before the Model T went into production in the fall of 1908.
I have concluded that there is no evidence that production Model T's ever used NRS coilboxes. The main source of the belief that this type of coilbox was used seems to come from the March 1908 Model T Advance Catalog. However, the Advanced Catalog was released well before the June 1908 design changes were made.
Yes, I am working on another article...
Thank you for the encouragement and thank you also for all your support to our hobby and clubs. I know for many things it would have been easy to find the real answer back in 1909 or 1910 -- just looking at the shipping invoices would often tell us which coil box came on the car.
Thank you also for all your support to our hobby and clubs. I’m looking forward to your article which always brings additional references to our hobby.
Does anyone have additional photos of the dash where the coil box is mounted on car #220 before it was restored? I wonder if the outline of a Kingston coil box brackets are or are not visible on the dash? I don’t know if the Heinze coil box was wider and would cover those of the Kingston or not. But it would be nice to view the photo either way.
A little bit of thread drift from the original question but still very interesting.
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Hap, the owner of 220 in the early 1960's was Edward Hausgen or Hausgren. I think Herb Ifring knows him. He may have pictures of the car during that time. It's also possible that Glen Chaffin may have some pictures as he was friends with Ben Snyder who bought the car from Edward. Ben sold it to Bill Harah where it remained part of Harahs auto collection until Bills death. I bought the car at the second Harahs auction, I sold it to a collector in Oregon where it still resides.
Kim I will try to get by to see Ed and ask him about any pictures of the car.
Thanks Kim and Herb,
It is probably a long shot -- but if the dash had not been changed out I would hope the imprint from the original Kingston coil box brackets would still be visible. If possible please keep me posted on what you are able to find out.
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Does any one have a picture of original floor boards after they went from from form two pedals to three? Don mddws @yahoo.com or 419 447 5254
Don, check with Don Skille.