U joint ??

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Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2015: U joint ??
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By bob middleton on Sunday, January 04, 2015 - 03:23 pm:

Guys went though a bucket of ujoint parts came up with a combo the make a nice tight but free u joint
now to join the two halves
Were can you get rivits or advice on what i have done
Took some grade 8 bolts and nuts peened them over they are all locked together


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ken Kopsky, Lytle TX on Sunday, January 04, 2015 - 09:00 pm:

I would imagine that grade-8 bolts and nuts are stronger than a rivet. Most steel rivets are equivalent to about grade 3-5. They're easy to cut. The bolts are under tension stresses. In other words under a load, the two halve want to separate. Pack it with grease and run it.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Allan Bennett - Australia on Sunday, January 04, 2015 - 09:06 pm:

Bob, when I was much younger I once vee'd out the join between the two sides of the cage between each pin and arc welded the vee. Filed the weld down to flush and ran that U joint until I sold the car.

Can't vouch for longevity.

Allan from down under.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David Dewey, N. California on Sunday, January 04, 2015 - 11:58 pm:

I would worry that grade 8 bolts are too "brittle" for this use, and might fracture under a sudden load.
BUT, I'm not a metallurgist.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Wayne Sheldon, Grass Valley, CA on Monday, January 05, 2015 - 03:28 am:

How tight-fitting were the grade 8 bolts? Did they have a nice solid shoulder going most of the way through the holes? I don't recall what the hole or rivet size is there, and don't have a convenient one to measure. But sometimes a hole must be drilled up one size for a bolt to equal the strength of a rivet. Probably, the bolts would be fine there. I know a lot of U-joints have been run with bolts instead of rivets. If I recall correctly, the one time I did that? I drilled the holes up about a half size.
Also, like David D, I tend to be wary of grade 8 bolts. I have had some break where I know good grade 5 bolts would not. I know that they are not supposed to. Maybe they were defective? They were made in China. I do hate to blame everything on that. All I know is that I have had several grade 8 bolts break.
Drive carefully, and enjoy, W2


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John McGinnis in San Jose area, CA. on Monday, January 05, 2015 - 01:33 pm:

It seems to me that there is low stress on the fasteners retaining the two halves of the joint. The soft rivets used originally were never a problem. I suggest that we not worry this to death and use a convenient bolt that fits and clamps well. Secure the nuts by peening or weld.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Kevin Holland, Utah on Monday, January 05, 2015 - 04:32 pm:

Check this company out: Black Smith Bolt and Rivet Supply.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Herb Iffrig on Tuesday, January 06, 2015 - 09:52 am:

Here is the link for the site Kevin mentioned:

http://www.blacksmithbolt.com/


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Jelf, Parkerfield KS on Tuesday, January 06, 2015 - 10:12 am:

Jim Dix has a big selection of rivets and rivet tools. I got the tools from him to repair my frame.

http://www.bigflatsrivet.com/




Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Erik Johnson on Tuesday, January 06, 2015 - 11:42 am:

Disclaimer - I'm not an engineer:

When a rivet is set, its diameter expands and puts pressure around the circumference of the hole. So, the head, the peened end and the shank of the rivet all apply pressure.

A bolt doesn't do the above. If anything, I would think when the bolt is tightened, it could stretch causing the diameter to be reduced. The only pressure is the head and the nut, but not the shank.

Does this make sense?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Jelf, Parkerfield KS on Tuesday, January 06, 2015 - 12:33 pm:

Yes, it does. That's why I replaced the incorrect bolts with correct rivets on my frame. I'll also use rivets when I build my Model T trailer. It's a little more work than using bolts, but you know things are going to stay put.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ken Kopsky, Lytle TX on Tuesday, January 06, 2015 - 03:17 pm:

In dream land that's what might happen. :-) In reality, most insert the rivet in the hole(s) then heat it. Along with the surrounding area. So you loose much of the "grip" on the hole and some tension forces after the metal cools.

If you tighten the grade 8 nuts to acceptable torque, they won't stretch any meaningful amount. They are still stronger than a rivet used there. If you use imported bolts, nuts or rivets, all bets are off.

It's been a while since I looked at an OEM U-joint but didn't Ford use hollow rivets there? If so, there can't be much force applied.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Stephen D Heatherly on Tuesday, January 06, 2015 - 05:30 pm:

Ken, the rivets were not hollow but, solid.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David Dewey, N. California on Tuesday, January 06, 2015 - 05:54 pm:

Rolls Royce used to use tapered bolts, the taper was just a bit larger than the drilled hole, so as you tightened the bolt, it press-fitted in.
Yes grade 5 bolts are stronger than grade 3, but they are also more brittle--I'm still waiting to hear an engineer tell us if the shear strength from a shock load is better on a 3 than a 5.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Frank van Ekeren (Australia) on Tuesday, January 06, 2015 - 06:06 pm:

With out looking through my old dusty books, old school rule of thumb was, Shear strength is about
55/60% of tensile strength.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ken Kopsky, Lytle TX on Tuesday, January 06, 2015 - 06:53 pm:

There's not much shear load. The thrust is against the cage. As the cross and/or cage wears, the thrust will move to one side or the other of the separation and put tension on the fasteners. I've seen U-Joints that are separated due to excessive wear and none sheared the fastener. The head of the rivet(s) popped off!

This image shows direction of thrust.



Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ken Kopsky, Lytle TX on Tuesday, January 06, 2015 - 07:07 pm:

Here's a failure that was posted a while back.

http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/257047/308363.html?1346049998



Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ken Kopsky, Lytle TX on Tuesday, January 06, 2015 - 07:41 pm:

"Rolls Royce used to use tapered bolts..."

David, that's funny that you would compare RR to a Model T. :-)

Ferrari doesn't use U-Joints. They use CV joints.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David Dewey, N. California on Tuesday, January 06, 2015 - 08:39 pm:

ken,
Well, it was more about bolts vs rivets than T vs RR--but I have heard, "Give a Brit a piece of metal & he'll do something foolish with it."
BTW, I've heard that Ts break down occasionally.
This NEVER happens to a Rolls; they just "fail to proceed." :-)

BTW, that failed joint looks like it already gave it's all--talk about worn out!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ken Kopsky, Lytle TX on Tuesday, January 06, 2015 - 11:55 pm:

Yeah, that thing is worn and dangerous. Complete separation will have the same effect as broken babbitt thrust washers in the rear end--No brakes! It looks like it ran for quite some time like that. You can see the wear dimple on the cross that matches the separation.

It pays to investigate odd noises.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By bob middleton on Wednesday, January 07, 2015 - 12:47 am:

Yikes no mibe is nice new the bolts i changes to grade 5 as i do agree with being to bittle and didnt like the way the peened out and now thing appear better
It is a rotating mass once wear is over tokerance it like anything else beats itself to death
Yes i had a babbit thrust go on me once and was lucky in that i got it stopped but not befor i did alot of damage
I gonna run it atleast it be first ujoint that i had that has no slop
Thanks i think 9 just need everyone opion


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Allan Bennett - Australia on Wednesday, January 07, 2015 - 01:51 am:

Ken, I can report that you need not worry about a U joint splitting and then having no brakes. It doesn't happen.
In my youth I had a U joint cage part company. The two yokes cannot migrate far enough up or down the tailshaft to ever get past one another. In my first T, the split joint yokes drove on one another enough to get me home. You are right about the noise though. And the heat generated melted the whitemetal out of the 4th main. Ah! the innocence of youth.

Hope this is of some re-assurance.

Allan from down under.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ken Kopsky, Lytle TX on Wednesday, January 07, 2015 - 09:25 am:

Thanks Allan, that does ease the mind. I had second thoughts on the complete separation last night while wondering how much clearance there is inside the ball.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By neil obrien on Wednesday, January 07, 2015 - 10:28 am:

check with Larry Azevedo (new mtfca board member) in Albuquerque. ph505-898-7700 He remachines old u-joints and adds bearings.nice job cost???


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jerry VanOoteghem - SE Michigan on Wednesday, January 07, 2015 - 10:43 am:

I don't know how Larry does it but, I've seen u-joints that have had needle bearing cups inserted. Long story short, there was not enough material left after boring stock away to allow for the bearings. The u-joint blew apart and destroyed the torque tube ball end.

I second Erik's take on rivets versus bolts.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By James Baker on Wednesday, January 07, 2015 - 12:00 pm:

Just find a good used one there are plenty out there, stop wasting your time.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John McGinnis in San Jose area, CA. on Wednesday, January 07, 2015 - 12:09 pm:

James Baker,
Thanks for adding some sense to this thread. This has become agony.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Aaron Griffey, Hayward Ca. on Wednesday, January 07, 2015 - 12:24 pm:

Why not compare a T to a Rolls?
I have heard a few times that in World War One the British depended only on Model T Fords And Rolls Royces to be used in the north African desert.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jerry VanOoteghem - SE Michigan on Wednesday, January 07, 2015 - 01:04 pm:

Simply put: do what James Baker suggests.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By kep on Wednesday, January 07, 2015 - 11:52 pm:

Funny that there are people who still believe there are used U-joints. Nope. None here. All gone long long ago.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By bob middleton on Thursday, January 08, 2015 - 12:36 am:

Well i try my best find trade beg barrow or steal ok not steal store while in use coz your not using it
Most anyone go out buy one but me im on a budget dont ever plan drive my current T around the world but hopefuly around enouf corners to get home
I have restored or worked on many T's and after a few pot holes in my road im just trying get one more to enjoy on a shoe string buget


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Roger Karlsson, southern Sweden on Thursday, January 08, 2015 - 03:14 am:

You did a repair - I wouldn't worry much about using it as is with the peened over bolts. If there ever is a problem with this joint, you'll hear it in time before it creates a bigger problem and the brake will work anyway.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jerry VanOoteghem - SE Michigan on Thursday, January 08, 2015 - 10:50 am:

Good advice Roger.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hal Schedler, Sacramento on Thursday, January 08, 2015 - 02:26 pm:

James Baker, Your suggestion is a good one, but it takes away the fun of it all. At least try to fix one and if it doesn't work, chuck it....at least that's my take on it all. I have a bunch of loose U joints. You think it would work to sleeve the male ends? I didn't read every post so I hope I'm not repeating anything.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By James Baker on Thursday, January 08, 2015 - 02:40 pm:

There is a good u joint listed in the classifieds now. Sorry to take the fun out of Hal.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David Dewey, N. California on Thursday, January 08, 2015 - 05:37 pm:

Kep says there are no more good used U-joints out there. Hmm, I will admit, I haven't looked for a few years, but I find really, really nice ones at swap meets occasionally--some I'd swear are NOS. And the price has always been WAY below new retail!
But, it has been a few years. . . .


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mike Walker, NW AR on Thursday, January 08, 2015 - 09:53 pm:

I can find what I need at swap meets. I go to only 3 or 4 meets a year, but when I get low on U-joints, one or two nice ones seem to appear.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Harold Schwendeman - Sumner,WA on Thursday, January 08, 2015 - 10:10 pm:

David - Just to clarify, Kep said,......"Nope. None here. All gone long, long ago."

I think it might be that you forgot, or, didn't realize that Kep lives in New Zealand. So, what he meant was there are none left in New Zealand, which I can understand might just be a completely different used parts situation than what we have here,.......harold


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David Dewey, N. California on Friday, January 09, 2015 - 01:12 am:

Harold,
You are correct, Kep doesn't list his location in his signature, and it takes time on dial-up to check that out. Yes, in NZ parts are hard to come by! So, Kep, no offense meant, I was thinking here in California, they aren't hard to find. I wonder what the shipping costs are like, probably doubles the price of the U joint.
OUCH!!!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David Dewey, N. California on Friday, January 09, 2015 - 01:15 am:

Harold,
You are correct, Kep doesn't list his location in his signature, and it takes time on dial-up to check that out. Yes, in NZ parts are hard to come by! So, Kep, no offense meant, I was thinking here in California, they aren't hard to find. I wonder what the shipping costs are like, probably doubles the price of the U joint.
OUCH!!!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Eric Sole - Castelldefels (Spain) on Saturday, January 10, 2015 - 10:58 am:

My U-joint has no play between the input and output ends, but the yokes do, so they slide sideways inside the main body. One yoke has 1/16" and the other 3/32" play.

Does this have an easy fix which does not involve disassembly?




Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Eric Sole - Castelldefels (Spain) on Saturday, January 10, 2015 - 11:02 am:

What about the new U-joint available from Lang's. Anybody have experience with this replacement part?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Roger Karlsson, southern Sweden on Saturday, January 10, 2015 - 11:29 am:

Eric, the sideways play is not a problem since both input and output axles has their own bearings. Only U-joints for open driveshafts needs to hold sideways.
Your U-joint will work fine (but check the fourth main and the upper driveshaft bearing while you have it apart).

I've found good originals, so I have no experience with the repros.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ken Todd, ............Red Deer, Alberta on Saturday, January 10, 2015 - 11:31 am:

I wouldn't worry about it, especially if both the driveshaft bushing and the fourth main are good.
I would suspect that it's good to have some clearance in there.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Eric Sole - Castelldefels (Spain) on Saturday, January 10, 2015 - 11:43 am:

That's good news! One less thing to have to replace :-)

Thanks guys!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By george house . . .caldwell county, TX on Saturday, January 10, 2015 - 01:01 pm:

Excellent, tight U joints for sale. Money back guarantee . . $75 . . . $60 to NZ


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Eric Sole - Castelldefels (Spain) on Saturday, January 10, 2015 - 01:20 pm:

George, just in case - how much to Spain?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Kevin Whelihan Danbury, WI on Friday, February 13, 2015 - 11:09 pm:

Last u-joint I bought from Larry Azevedo cost me $90/exchange. He does a wonderful job re-engineering them. Only have about 250 miles on it, but so far everything is fine. When I rebuild my next drive train, I am going to order another one of his units.


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