Does the Warford trans. add to the speed of the Tee? Or is it the same ratio as the Ruckstell axle?
It can if you have the underdrive-direct-overdrive. (the 3/6 speed)
Mine is the new Warford .
Rick, if you have a new KC Warford; low is an underdrive; second is direct 1:1, and high is an overdrive.
The new Warford over drive ratio is 3.02 to 1
Maybe when the Warford is in overdrive and you have a stock ratio rear end the overall ratio is 3.02:1.
Yes Kep Really! stock diff ratio 3.64 to 1 gives these ratios for the new warford.
Oh.. you mean wheels to engine with standard ratio axle is 3.02:1. i thought you meant one turn of engine was 3.02 of driveshaft which would be abnormally tall.
Can you spin it around and get 18.41 to 1 OVERdrive ???
TT flatbed speedster, here I come !
All those numbers kinda confuses me. I`m kinda slow when it comes to ratios. I have a standard rearend, is this new KC Warford going to help my speed. Or did I buy something that`s not going to help in the top end. Hope I didn`t make a mistake.
Frank - I have an old original iron Warford in my '26 Touring. Would you happen to know if those "numbers" you listed would be the same ratios for my iron Warford? Not that it's that important to know, because,.....whatever it is,....it is! But it would be nice to know,......thanks,.......harold
Hey Rick - the generally accepted thought on the Warford is that it does not usually improve one's top end speed. You may get a little bit more out of it as you'll get back closer to the power band when you shift into OD. By a little bit more we're talking an extra 10 mph at most. The KC Warford is a VERY nice addition. Will make your car much more drivable and its short shifts are great. I would never call adding a Warford a mistake.
I see that this is your first time posting. Please do not take any of my questions or comments as insulting your intelligence. Tell us about your engine and really the whole rest of your car. Are you running stock ignition or distributor or high tension magneto? What carburetor do you have?
I can tell you and others will agree - the cheapest, easiest way to bolt on speed and acceleration is to get a better carburetor. A period correct accessory carburetor will completely transform your engine. A Stromberg OF from Stan Howe, or any of the carbs he recommends for a T are a great addition. I have a Zenith S4BF that I love. I really want to get a U&J or a Winfield with a barrel valve. When I went from a Holley NH to that Zenith it was like I doubled my acceleration and added 30 MPH to my top end.
At the same time - with all of this talk of increasing speed in a Model T, I'd be remiss if I didn't ask about your brakes. A Model T doesn't stop very well or very quickly from 35 MPH. With the stock braking system it gets exponentially worse every MPH faster than that. Besides being a horrific feeling when you are unable to stop like you want it's incredibly dangerous. SO! Do you have any accessory brakes? Like Rocky Mountains, or ACs? If you are going to run an auxiliary transmission (KC Warford) having auxiliary brakes as an absolute must. Granted, with a KC Warford it's impossible (or at least very difficult) to get caught in neutral and unable to get the trans in gear. However, if you are stuck in neutral your transmission brake (the brake pedal) will not be able to stop the car because it won't be connected to the driveshaft. You are then stuck with only your emergency brake - which is really more of a parking brake and likely not up to the task of bringing your T to a halt from 40+ MPH in anything resembling a reasonable amount of time.
Even then, you're only braking the rear wheels - which isn't very effective even if you can lock them up. I've slowly ran right through a couple red lights when I was enjoying going fast but the light changed in an awkward spot and I couldn't get her stopped in time. HAHA, felt a bit sheepish and glad to have not caused an accident when I came to a halt a good 50 yards clear on the other side of the light. Lots of us on here have speedsters and like to go fast. Don't let the folks who are scared of going past 35 slow you down. But, you got to have a good braking system in place otherwise you are asking for disaster.
Anyway, please tell us more about your T - post pictures!
Rick, is it the '26 sedan you have in your profile that gets the KC Warford?
A sedan is among the heaviest Model T's, Ford even sold them with 4:1 rear axle ratio in some hilly markets, so 3:1 won't be useful most of the time if you encounter hilly terrain or headwinds.
Std 3.64:1 means about 40 rpm per mph while 3:1 only needs 30 rpm per mph, so with a light speedster or a runabout you can count on more speed with 3:1 - 1500 rpm gives 37.5 mph with std ratio but 50 mph if the engine has enough power to rev 1500 rpm. With a heavy body it may even be slower than standard with a too high ratio.
Now, what to do if the engine hasn't got the power to get up to speed in OD - well, you can buy a high compression head, a Prus or a Z head will both help. Another modification that may help hill climbing if you have a std cam or a std regrind may be a 7.5 degree advanced timing gear.
If that's not enough, then an accessory carb may give even more power. I've made some modifications for a Tillotson X model A carb to fit and it helps - but there are other accessory carbs that's more period correct and that may fit without modifications.
With an accessory trans you'll also need wheel brakes. Most modifications on a T causes the need for other modifications, but with the right combination of accessories it'll be easier to use on modern roads among modern cars.
Harold, the original Warfords had an even higher overdrive, 0.73:1 compared to 0.83:1 with the KC Warford. Maybe they were meant for TT trucks, without a load a high OD really helps.
Here's a PDF with both old and new Warfords compared: http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/50893/Warford_Final_Gear_Ratios-51561.pdf
The final ratio in OD with an old Warford and a std rear end ratio would be 2.67:1 according to the pdf.
I have all the updated equip. Plus hydraulic brakes. I was hoping to get 45mph. with out shacking the fenders off. Its going in a 26 touring. I like driving around 25, but when cars start backing up behind you in a 45 mile zone. We don`t want bad vib`s from people. So I always pull over let them go on. But there times a person need to do the speed limit of 45mph. So I guss it wasn`t the anser to my problem, the Warford I mean. So thanks all for the imput.
Rick -- With the standard Ford rear gear ratio, your Touring will easily do 45 mph with the KC Warford. The overdrive gear works great on flat ground, but you'll need to shift back to the Warford's 2nd gear when you encounter a hill. The Warford 2nd gear is the same as the stock gearing.
I my humble opinion, having had a warford in a touring car, I have to say that a ruckstell is a much better investment overall. I rarely , if ever, used warford 3rd gear. I used the low on steep hills and was usually in direct drive (or warford 2nd). I'm looking for a small drum ruckstell for my depot hack and may go to a new one from Chaffins. I can see a warford in a TT for obvious reason, but not a stock T. Southern Indiana is full of hills. We vacation in French Lick (about 60 miles) where there is a long steep hill to the condos. I will not chance it without a ruckstell and external brakes. I usually have driven my A in the past, but no A so far this year, so the T will be my vehicle of choice. Someday I hope to tour with Mike Walker and the Arkansas T's in Eureka Springs area.
Mike -- C'mon down when it warms up a bit. We can tour anytime.
A really good gearing combo is the KC Warford coupled with a 4:1 rear gear. You'll get a bit higher speed (having the overdrive) than with the stock gearing, but the 4:1 will give you more power to pull the hills. The 4:1 rear gear makes the Warford's overdrive much more usable. All you need is a 10-tooth pinion gear to get the 4:1.
A minor but related thread drift - please forgive me:
Can anyone provide a listing of ratios like the one Frank posted above for a Muncie?
With a stock engine, 4:1 rear end and an old original aluminum Warford I could cruise 55 easily with two people.
The very fast overdrive high made it hard to go up grades when I got below 40 though. The engine was running too slow to pull well.
The New KC Warfords with their slower overdrive should be an improvement on that problem though.
Thank you Roger!
Rick, you;re probably tired of reading the Warford follow up's but just thought I would.... First, will you go faster....Depends. First of all do you have a "good" motor? My comments assume you do. If you have a 3/1 rear and just a standard engine....no. The engine doesn't have enough torque. All you do is run with a lower RPM and no power at all. With a standard rear and just a NH or so carb, yes possibly on flat land. Pulling a hill, only somewhat. Down hill, you'll be a rocket. With a high compression head, yes, not a great amount but yes. I have 3 Warfords and believe me, they do improve the performance in as much as you'ff have more versatility in gear selection and hill pulling. But, you'll not be a racer by any means....Jerry
Henry P- there was a thread a couple years back i believe put up by clayton paddison which had the ratios for several different aux trannys. try searching muncie, or chicago mark e with google and mtfca included in the search
"Std 3.64:1 means about 40 rpm per mph"
I'm a bit confused about this. I have a '23 Runabout with the standard 3 1/2 x 30 tires and standard gears in a Ruckstell axle. I know I have gone FAST a few times to see "whatellshedo" and found the experience more exciting than any I care have in a T.
I had the E-Timer "read" recently and it recorded max revs of 2409. If my math (always poor) is correct, that means (gulp) 60.22 mph.
Did I do the figures wrong? That seems very fast for any T much less a newly overhauled mostly stock one . . .
While a "stock" T is capable of those speeds, I would suspect that the 2409 RPM was while accelerating in low rather than speeding in direct. I've found it fairly easy to rev a T motor in low without realizing how much. At least that's what I see with the tach on my speedster.
Yes, that is certainly a possibility. I know that sometimes the motor really goes fast just prior to an upshift on a hill.
Thanks for all the help, I feel better about buying the trans now!!
Thanks Clayton. I'll look for it.