Sorry. I forgot the picture on the last post. sigh. Can anyone identify these firewall brackets. The came off my 1916 Touring.
They resemble brackets from 26-27 coil box.
Don't know what you got there but this is what the brackets should look like for your wood firewall.
Patrick, I think those are replacement aftermarket firewall brackets. I flipped the pic for us vertically challenged folks. Maybe Jay or someone has an ad for them ..???
Jay must have been typing while I was I guess he does not have an ad for them. I have had some like them in the past. I only have one single at this time.
I too had a pair of those on a frame. I guessed they were a transition used for a short time between the more common brackets.
I have a pair just like Patrick's on my '16. I always figured they were wrong...still do! Aftermarket replacements perhaps? They are well made though.
I forgot to add, just two holes as is his.
I guess I still have that frame. looks the same to me.
Hmmm... For Sale Pair of very rare 1916 Transitional firewall brackets $1000.00.
Were those brackets on Annie the 1916 touring that is pictured in your profile? If so, the photo would lead me to believe the car was never restored in the past. If that is the case, then was there any evidence to support they may have been changed out sometime in the past? I.e. shinny bolts and nuts or modern nuts and bolts etc.? Do you know if the firewall / dash was an original one? They often delaminate but if the firewall was original and the rest of the car was original, then you may be able to look at the dash and see if the longer 1911-1916 style firewall to frame brackets were ever installed. They would have normally left an outline on the dash if they had been installed.
I don't think there would have been much of a market for a replacement bracket. They wouldn't wear out. An accident could cause them to be bent but some heat and they would likely straighten out enough to be usable again. And used ones would have been available in 1916 from junk yards that had wrecked 1911-12ish cars.
I wonder if the holes line up with the bottom two holes on previous bracket where it bolted to the dash? Perhaps John Regan in his research on the dashes has come across a note on that? Or perhaps his son's 1916 might have a similar set?
Note for many years folks tossed the "pointy front springs" that were fitted to some 1916s as they believed they were after market. But after a Ford scrip was found on some of the "pointy springs" John did some research and found they were used the later part of 1916 production [see: http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/29/5633.html ].
It would be nice if we or someone could document that it was a transition item or if it was an aftermarket item.
Also if you could take a look at your car and see if it has a body number on it (for a 1916-1922ish they would normally be located on the right front floor board riser. The part that slopes upward and inward and holds the top two floorboards. Also if the is a letter on the front or rear seat heel panel please let us know what that is. Please see the posting "Home for the Holidays" at: http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/29/5633.html . If you sent that to me before, I apologize -- I looked but I didn't find it.
Again thank you for posting the photos. And good luck with Annie.
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Patrick, I only said "I think" they are aftermarket. Hap does bring up a very good point and maybe we who thought "aftermarket" should back up and re-think the aftermarket thoughts. Do you have any good pics of them on your car before you removed them. It may shows some of the details Hap was asking about.
They are Ford factory brackets only used for a short time in 16 and on some 17 cars. As stated on a post above these were a transition from the forged brackets to the more common type used till 25.....A friend bought a 1916 with them on it from the original owner. When he asked about them he was told they had come on the car from the factory.
I have never seen those and my son's 16T roadster was built on December 24, 1915 thus it is a somewhat early 1916. I too wonder if those might have been a transition part. Please don't toss those away guys until we can verify what they are. Yes please check and perhaps post a picture of the original firewall if it is still around. I will have to check and see if perhaps the record of changes for the dash might have shown that they removed a hole in late 16 since that would perhaps point the way. Can one of you measure very carefully to tell us what the center to center distance is for those 2 holes. I am thinking it would be the top and bottom hole distance from a cast bracket but maybe not.
I will check tomorrow to see if there are any old style bracket dents behind my 16's original, delaminating firewall. Based on John Regans thought, I would assume a third never used hole in the firewall might also be a clue, if the two holes in fact correspond to the forged bracket.
Hi all. Here are some photos of similar brackets. I say similar because the bases of these seem slightly different to the photos above. That may be because mine are Canadian production. I've been told these were used in 1916 at least. I have found the remains of one on a 1915-16 frame.
John - although the hole spacing matches the bottom 2 holes in the forged bracket, they are higher on the 1916 bracket.
Canadian 16, mine has the same one on the left side and a single bolt one on the other, but has the 2 holes in the chassis rail.
My 1915 Canadian tourer had the same brackets.
Allan from down under.
Slightly drifting the thread a bit on transition. I have at least two frames that are punched (drilled?) for both the standard brass era brackets and the later two holes on the side of the rails for the brackets used at least through '25. At least one of them clearly has never had bolts in the side of the rail and used the early style firewall brackets when new. The other one I need to dig out and look at to know which it used originally.
Any definitive answer as to how long of a crossover time these double-drilled frames were used and what time frame it was?
I know the double drilling for the running board brackets went on for quite awhile and I have had several frames that originally used the earlier (forged) brackets, however had the holes top and bottom of the rails for the later brackets.
Drive carefully, and enjoy, W2
Wayne, you might also find that later chassis rails were drilled/punched to take RHD steering brackets, hand brake quadrants and even a set of holes to mount the battery carrier the other way round. This can't work, even on RHD chassis, as the battery carrier and the muffler are on the same side as US LHD cars. Presumably, the rails were drilled/punched as flat blanks before they were formed into their U shape.
Just to drift a little further.
Allan from down under.
I have a June of 16 touring that came with these brackets. When I got the car it was a fairly original car. Brendan from Central Wisconsin
It is pretty well known that for a time Ford punched the frames for both the later bent sheet steel firewall brackets and the earlier cast brackets. I checked the drawing record of changes for the dashes and there is no removal of the top hole which is why I wanted to see a picture of the dash as well as the bracket to see if there was an empty top hole. '17 dash of course has only 2 holes for whatever bracket held it to the frame. I am thinking that this folded sheet metal bracket may have been those used on the first of the black radiator Model T's for 1916. The new dash for these cars was drawn up in May of 1916 so if I am right, the cars that had these brackets would seem to have been at least those built AFTER that time. Let me do some more looking around here but I don't think I have the record of changes for the dash-to-frame bracket but since there was indeed a sheet metal type bracket that was simply just a 90 degree bent flat steel item it isn't hard to see the transition from cast to folded sheet metal to a then way simpler bent sheet metal part. This folded sheet metal part although simple enough in concept would be somewhat difficult to make since the part had 3 bends and for manufacturing they always like to start with the part as a precut "blank" of steel. If the top fold didn't land in the correct spot and that fold wasn't perfectly 90 degrees then the part would get out of line. Far simpler to make the later bracket and much stronger too with regard to front to back tilt and flexing of the dash.
Now to really screw up the data the part that has me baffled is this:
On both the early cast brackets and the much much later bent sheet metal brackets, the 2 holes that both brackets used were in fact 4-3/8 in apart and this folded steel bracket appears to be the same. OK we can't use hole spacing to determine which dash was used with these brackets.
On the 15/16 dash the bottom hole was 7/8" up from the top of the frame while on the next dash used for 17 and later that same hole was at a distance of 3/4" up from the top of the frame which is opposite what you guys are saying with regard to the height of that hole above the frame when comparing the 2 brackets side by side???
For clarity in this discussion I am calling the 15/16 dash the one used on the last brass radiator cars since those dashes were different than the black radiator cars which I am calling the 17 and later dash. The '17 and later dash was in fact introduced during Model year 1916 which is taken to be a couple months before the end of the 1916 Model year. The cast brackets must have been a high cost item and clearly the final sheet metal bracket would have been way easier to manufacture than the cast iron brackets. The last ones were simply a punch and then a single bend. Way faster than a casting with 5 drilled holes.
The 15/16 dash had to fit over the metal hood former while the 17 and later dash did not do that and 17 dash has a lot of new changes in it that make it substantially different than the 15/16 dash so clearly the last brass cars would seem not to have used the same dash as the first black radiator cars.
There are many instances during the Model T's production run in which the Ford engineers tried to make a part cheaper, or more quickly, or simply differently. Often times these would be referred to as "Experimental Design" in the Ford Engineering Records. Sometimes the new designs proved successful and were adopted for regular production, other times the new design proved to be less successful and was dropped.
While the pressed steel dash brackets being discussed in this thread were not referred to as "Experimental Design", they were in fact just that.
The two Dash Brackets carry the factory symbol number 1017B and 1018B. The early 1909-10 were redesign aged as T-1017A and T-1018A.
This design was adopted on January 21, 1916, and the Record of Changes described the change in material from a drop forging to hot rolled, open hearth steel, dead soft. The design was of folded and stamped steel. It still used the same mounting holes that were current on the frame and the dash at that time. The Ford Engineers stated that the "change was to take place as soon as can be made without holding up production."
Most cars that have this style of dash bracket were built between mid-February and the end of March, 1916. It was not considered a successful redesign, and on March 16,1916 the Ford Engineers changed back to the old design, writing: "Changed from a stamping design to a drop forged design, as was in use before the change of which were were notified on 1-21-16."
Personally, I have seen a number of examples of these dash brackets on February and March 1916 cars. Many times people don't even know they are there because they are covered up by,the,1915-1916 style hood former. You actually have to make an effort to see them. They are rare but not uncommon at swap meets.I purchased three NOS ones from just one side very cheaply just because no one else knew what they were.
Be assured that the pressed steel dash brackets are genuine Ford. They are an interesting footnote in the story of the Model T.
Respectfully Submitted - now back in New Hampshire
Very interesting information. So it appears if Im reading this right, that these are a mid 1916 (model year) only item used during part of Jan, all of Feb and part of March. There could be the normal overlap of the time frame due to the different branches implementing the change at different dates. Changes my thoughts as to what they are. John may be on to something, Now all I need, is to find one more to go with mine, and Ill have a pair of "Rare Transitional Brackets" "one year only" to list on e-bay 1000.00 for the pair should be a fair start price But joking, aside, Its discussions like this that is what is great about the Forum. It helps bring to light new information that can change the story of our Ts.
Thanks Trent. I never knew about those. It seems that just about every 1916 is turned into a 1915 so that more brass can be added but like the 1919 cars the 1916 cars turn out to be very interesting cars indeed with lots of fun details that are one year only or one month only type of things. I can see why they were not successful since I make the repro 10-13 brake rod supports and those involve a "fold back" design to double the thickness of the steel and they are hard to fabricate and make correctly likely for the same reasons that these were hard to make.
An interesting foot note is that the vertical holes in these brackets are NOT at 90 degrees to the frame top but actually "lean" towards the center so if you place a dash bracket on a flat surface to emulate the top of a frame, don't think your bracket is crooked if the holes are not exactly rising vertically above your bottom flat surface.
Absolutely incredible the amount of information you gentlemen have shared in the short amount of time since I posted last night. I am at work for a bit but will be returning to the car later this morning. I will post all of the requested pics and answer as many of the questions as I can.
Trent -- welcome back to the USA!
Trent shared form the Record of Changes (available at the Benson Ford Archives as well as some extracts from them are in Bruce McCalley's (R.I.P.) book "Model T Ford") that the folded pressed steel design was adopted January 21, 1916, and on March 16,1916 the Ford Engineers changed back to the old design. And his observation, "Most cars that have this style of dash bracket were built between mid-February and the end of March, 1916."
But note Andrew's comment that his bracket maybe a little different -- perhaps because of Canadian production. Also Allan's comment “My 1915 Canadian tourer had the same brackets." Of course a single data point doesn't necessarily establish a trend. Allan, do you have any comments on the likelihood that the brackets and engine serial number were likely both original to your 1915? In many cases we will never know what parts were or were not original to our car. In a few we know a part or part has been replaced. And with a few other cars we are fortunate enough to have good documentation and history of what has or has not been changed (such as the 1917 Rip Van Winkle Ford etc.).
Also, are there any other 1915 cars -- especially original Canadian 1915s or 1916s assembled before Feb 1916 that have those folded over brackets? Sometimes things were done earlier in Canada than in the USA, other times around the same time as the USA production, and sometimes quiet a while after USA production switched to a new part. (For example Canadian production introduced the one man top and slanted windshield several years before the USA production introduced them. And since Ford of Canada received their engine assemblies complete from the USA from 1909-May'ish 1913 the engine changes were the same in both countries. And while the USA phased out the ribbed transmission pedals during 1915 production, Canadian production continued to use them into the 1920s. )
Again, thanks to everyone for their inputs. Without them we would know less about our cars. With them we are gaining a better picture of how Ford most likely produced them.
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Ok, so the day got ahead of me. Here are some pictures of the firewall, brackets and bolts. No "new stock" that I can tell. Glad to hear that they are original/experimental. Unfortunately I did not take pictures before I removed them so if anyone has any pictures of them mounted I would be grateful! I tried looking for a number on the frame/body but could not find any. Would it be etched in the wood or the metal frame? As far as anyone knows, this car is 99.999% original so if anyone would like any specific pictures let me know and I will be happy to provide them.
Bottom Line Up Front: Would someone please confirm that the 1911-1916 firewall (dash) to frame brackets slant inward at the top? I.e. the distance between the bolts that attach the bottom of the firewall to the bracket are further apart than the bolts that attach the to of the firewall to the bracket. And of course a sanity check on the other comments would also be appreciated. (They sounded good as I was rushing to get out the door).
Thank you for posting the photos of your dash. It appears the outer laminated part has come off – that is very common. Jim Cook re-glued his main boards together and refinished his dash without the laminated front and back. He knew it should be black – but he left it natural – as that is what he wanted.
It turns out that photos of the dash brackets on 1911-1916 cars are not that common. The part even on the 1911-1914 dashes is still usually hidden by the hood former. Below is a photo of Jim Lyons’ 1915 showing how the hood former tends to block the view of the dash bracket (even the longer 1911-1916 with 3 holes rather than your shorter 2 hole version) – especially as it gets closer to the frame.
Bad news – your two brackets will probably bolt onto the frame just fine about 4 different ways if nothing else is attached to them. [Note there are many things on a Model T that fit more than one way but only function properly when installed the single correct way. For example – many folks have rebuilt the rear axle and found they now have two speeds in reverse and only one forward speed.] One pair of ways the dash brackets would push the dash / firewall forward while the other two ways would push it further towards the rear of the car. The dash has to be at the correct distance fore and aft so the steering column, hood, body, etc. line up.
The good news – it was easy to get the answer to the fore and aft position of the dash. You need to mount the brackets with the longer leg towards the back of the car. Rationale: For your brackets there is not an obvious “this side towards the dash” (or if thee is I missed it – that happens sometimes). But on the 1911-1916 brackets as shown in Andrew’s photo which he posted above and is posted again below there is an obvious “this side towards the dash.” [That would be the smooth side -- based on seeing dashes -- you can see that in Jim's photo above also.]
Based on the above photo I’m 99% sure that the long leg of the bracket goes towards the back of the car.
But even if you have the dash in the correct location, you still have two different ways the brackets could be installed. There is a right and left bracket. Installed one way the holes in the dash line up and the other way they do not.
You could temporarily bolt them back to the fire wall and see which way they fit properly on the firewall as well as the frame. Or – someone could confirm for us that the brackets are closer together at the top than at the bottom when they are mounted correctly. I think that is the case based on Jim Lyons’ photo that I posted. But that might be an optical illusion.
Concerning the body numbers – they are not found on all cars (I wish they were) but when they are present, they are normally either stamped into the wood or a metal tag is attached. The two most common locations are on the USA passenger side wooden sill that holds up the front floorboards as shown below. The first photo below is of Jim Cook's early 1916 that was produced in 1915.
Below shows a metal tag in that same general area – I apologize I did not label who sent me that photograph. If you recognize it – please let me know so I can add that to the title. And thank you to whoever did provide the photo.
(I'll break the posting in half -- just in case it doesn't work -- I won't have as much to recreate.)
Another possible location is the wooden seat frame just in front of the gas tank – but the few 1916 body numbers that I have documented so far are on the wooden sill holding the floorboards while the 1915s often had it on the wooden front seat frame as shown below. The first photo below I took of the 1914 in the South Carolina State Museum in Columbia SC (at least I think I took that one).
Below shows a 1915 Beaudett body tag attached to the seat frame (again I apologize for not having the name of the person who supplied the photo. – I need to get more organized. But thank you for posting and/or sending it to me. When I find the name – I plan to add it to the file name for future use.)
And there also were cases where the body number was found on the driver’s side floorboard sill or in one case underneath the floorboards but attached to the body timer was the metal tag.
And yes, please send any photos you have of your car. I’m always looking for good photos to illustrate parts or help answer questions or to document how things were most likely done. Please limit any single e-mail to 10mb or less so it will come through ok. If you click on my name at the beginning of this posting – it brings up my profile. My e-mail address is listed on the third line down.
Again thank you to everyone for their help in documenting this part. And again if anyone knows of other 1915 Canadian Ts with those brackets please let us know.
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Thank you everyone for the pictures and advice! Hap, I will try your suggestion this evening as we planned on tackling the install of the firewall. I will be taking numerous pictures to send to you. I will post any relevant to this topic back here.
Hap, my 1915 touring I bought in Charters Towers, Queensland in 1969. I believe it to be a genuine 1915 car based on the following;
Forked electric headlights, with brass rims. Our 1916 cars typically had single stem lights and black steel rims.
Brass trimmed tail light and one side light, with the diver's bell round reflector.
The engine number and casting date placed it in about August 1915, but I no longer have the car and cannot verify this.
Of interest was the alumimium cladding on the engine side of the firewall. It was thin and finely ribbed. I found a modern equivalent in the panel on the bottom half of a flyscreen house door. It had not fared well, much cracking and corrosion, but it was really well executed. Around each hole for the coilbox terminals the holes had a 1/8" return into the hole. This had to be done with tooling of some sort, rather than having the appearance of a once-off hand made job.
I have never seen another like it. Perhaps our Canadian friends may have.
Allan from down under.
Thank you Allan, that gives us a few more puzzle pieces to put in the box for those short style dash brackets. And that is the first time I have heard of an aluminum covered dash. There are some "one-off" Canadian parts and cars. Two that come to mind are the high cowl Centerdoor (see: http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/257047/315107.html?1349255577 ) and high cowl suicide coupe (sorry the link no longer works for that one). I've still been trying to figure out if they were a transition cars or the body company's attempt to move the last of the bodies to Ford of Canada after the assembly line had switched to the high radiator, or if it was something else. But clearly they both are NOT typical 1924 high radiator cars and both appear to have come from the factory that way.
Patrick -- please let us know which way the brackets go when you get that sorted out. And thank you for the e-mail.
Any other pre-Feb 1916 cars with the short firewall brackets?
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Hap, here is a picture of the passenger side bracket installed (long leg towards the back)without the firewall. The exposed body uprights give a good perspective this way. As you can see there is a distinct lean towards the center of the car.
I went a step further and ran a plumbline down the face of the bracket.
I'd be happy to send you the original higher resolution pictures if you like.
Thank you for posting the photos and the update.
Anyone know of any additional Canadian cars with the short brackets before Feb 1916?
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Update on the firewall installation project with the short brackets.
So when I removed the firewall so the engine could be removed it was completely delaminated and in pieces, though each separate piece was intact. I had the bright idea of gluing the pieces back together. Some were a bit warped so I placed a couple very heavy weights on the assembly as it was drying. Much to my chagrin, when I installed the firewall the coil box would no longer fit. The holes were approximately 1/4 - 1/2" too short. Ugh... After much grumbling, I removed the former and proceeded to break the 2 boards on the left back apart. I now have the coil box installed but there are 1/8 - 1/4" gaps between 3 of the boards. Mind you, all the holes for the firewall brackets and the hood former on the right and left line up perfectly. I also had to use 3 washers as shims where the firewall bracket attaches to the firewall as there is a 3/8" gap between the bracket and firewall. Is possible that the firewall dried and shrank that much over the years? Looks like it may be time for a new firewall.