Rolling chassis question

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Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2015: Rolling chassis question
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jason DeGooyer on Saturday, January 24, 2015 - 01:20 am:

Does anyone have pictures of what 1923 or earlier rolling 1 ton TT chassis looked like when they came out of the Ford factory?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Erik Johnson on Saturday, January 24, 2015 - 01:25 am:

http://www.shorpy.com/node/5604?size=_original


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ken Kopsky, Lytle TX on Saturday, January 24, 2015 - 01:32 am:

Those don't look like TTs to me.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Terry Woods, Richmond, Texas on Saturday, January 24, 2015 - 02:12 am:

I agree, Ken. They look like car chassis to me. The 1926 Fordex manual has a good picture. I'll see if I can scan it and post it.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jim Thode Chehalis Washington on Saturday, January 24, 2015 - 02:26 am:

From past threads on this forum.

From a 1920 Ford brochure.
http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/80257/98814.html?1248025978


Another don't know the year


Jim


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hap Tucker in Sumter SC on Saturday, January 24, 2015 - 10:04 am:

Jason,

You might want to let folks know why you want the photo. I.e. just for general information> If that is the case just about any photo or illustration will work.

But if it is to help you figure out how to build a body -- then the illustrations with the actual measurements would probably serve you better (See the illustrations with dimensions about halfway down the posting at: http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/118802/125879.html ).

If you want to restore a Ton Truck (TT) chassis (or car etc.) as close to original as possible then the illustrations from the sales brochures etc. are not the best source of information. For example in the illustration posted by Jim from 1920 above -- that is not a normal production TT chassis as illustrated. [I suspect it was drawn from a 1917 prototype TT chassis and updated later.]

From Trent's article at: http://www.mtfca.com/encyclo/I-O.htm#ik "... the switch mounted on the coil box of non-started equipped cars ended about August 9, 1922. Thereafter, this switch key was given the designation T-5815-AR, the R indicating that the part was to be used for repairs only. (Releases for T-5815-AR)"

But the TT running boards that extended well past the running board brackets were not introduced until sometime during the 1925 production ref: http://www.mtfca.com/encyclo/P-R.htm#rb . The earlier boards were 14-15/16 long and basically stop at the rear running board bracket. The later TT running boards were 21-29/32 and extend well past the running board bracket (ref page 14 of the Jan - Feb 1977 "Vintage Ford").

That same article dates the illustration with the long running board and pneumatic tires as Oct 8 1919 for a 1920 brochure. But it is clear from the previous illustration on the same page 14, that has the solid rubber tires, that they only changed out the tires and wheels for the "updated" illustration.

And as pointed out in the original post about the illustration -- the running board brackets were not used in production. Note sometimes the illustrations were made from looking at actual photos. But often those photos were of prototypes that had differences from the actual production. And often the illustrations were changed over the years -- updated but not a new illustration drawn from scratch.

Below is ca 1920 photo of a TT with Fordson from page 25 of the Jan-Feb 1977 "Vintage Ford" used by permission. You can see a photo of the same TT before the Fordson is loaded on page 82 of "Henry's Wonder Model T" by Clymer.



Good luck with your project and if you wanted more than just a general illustration -- please let folks know what you are looking for.

Respectfully submitted,

Hap l9l5 cut off


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jason on Saturday, January 24, 2015 - 11:14 pm:

Hap brings up a very good point. The reason I am asking about what rolling chassis looked like coming off the assembly line is that I have what I believe was a 1923 or earlier rolling chassis that later had an aftermarket body built on it. The firewall is now falling apart and I was looking for pictures to get an idea of how to try to repair it. I want to keep it as original as possible and would love to reuse the original firewall boards. But I dont know were to start. Do these pictures give any idea of whether this firewall is salvageable?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By bob middleton on Saturday, January 24, 2015 - 11:53 pm:

Well you have 26/7 motor and trans but i would just draw up a patern and make a new replacement part you can age it with stains oils and paint and lightly sand it it wont look new but it will be


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By george house . . .caldwell county, TX on Sunday, January 25, 2015 - 09:02 am:

Yeah, you probably have a late TT chassis. For the fun of it, look and see if the engine serial number matches the number stamped on the frame.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Jelf, Parkerfield KS on Sunday, January 25, 2015 - 09:26 am:

Bob is right about the 26-27 engine & transmission.

If the wood isn't too rotten and/or warped, you can reglue it. But then you'd need to glue on new veneer, so you might as well go all new and make it look old.

Looks like the wiring may need attention.
:-)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mike Walker, NW AR on Sunday, January 25, 2015 - 10:32 am:

Looks to me like that core can be re-glued. It's missing a piece below the steering column, but that can be fabricated using the other side as a pattern. The piece above the column is Oak, probably White Oak, in case you want to be that accurate in replacing the missing lower portion. After gluing the core back together, take it to a woodworker who has a vacuum press and have him veneer it for you on both sides. I think the veneer was maple; John Regan is the authority on that.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dan Treace, North FL on Sunday, January 25, 2015 - 11:29 am:

That firewall looks pretty weak, reworking the 80+ wood is a chore. Remember, the steering column uses the firewall for support, and any wiggle there will be felt in your steering. Probably best to replace using the old as pattern.

Had to do that on an aftermarket body, the old firewall was fixed poorly at sometime with a piece of soft pine, and was beyond re-use. The old way of gluing pieces of board together was OK back when. But for strength, one-piece board is best. Replaced it with furniture quality plywood.







Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jason on Sunday, January 25, 2015 - 04:28 pm:

You guys are right, it has a 26 engine but I have to ask, how did you identify that from the picture? I assume the body is 1923 or older since firewalls were steel after early 1923. (and there is no frame number which they started stamping in early 1925).

So is that how the planks were originally held together? They were just glued?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Erich Bruckner, Vancouver, WA on Sunday, January 25, 2015 - 04:35 pm:

The wide foot pedals and the hoghead cover has 2 ears that bolt to the back of the block, all that started in 1926 model.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Henry Petrino in Modesto, CA on Sunday, January 25, 2015 - 04:36 pm:

Easy, the block supports and the pedals. Only '26 and '27 are made like that.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dan Treace, North FL on Sunday, January 25, 2015 - 05:53 pm:



Improved car came with the new transmission, for 1926 model year. The new model came out in Aug. 1925. Lots of changes for the new Improved T. But the TT chassis had little changes early 1926.

The TT came chassis only, beginning late July 1917, and Ford didn't start to supply metal bodies until later years, starting Jan 1924 with the C-cab and April 1925 with the enclosed cab.

Need photos of your body. If Ford, the firewall was metal, if not, wood. Wood construction in those days were joined panels, some veneer, but un-like real good 5-7 layer sandwich of today's glued plywood.

The engine number would date your motor, but appears as the Improved engine. If original to the chassis, that dates that too. Otherwise you have to note subtle differences in the chassis to date your TT.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dan Treace, North FL on Sunday, January 25, 2015 - 06:01 pm:

Jason

Looking again at your photos, the cowl metal sure does look like Ford body, early with wood firewall, early 1923 or earlier.

Think maybe someone used a car body cowl section for the start of the TT body. That was common in re-using a TT chassis for commercial work...the ole Ford won't die!

Your TT should be a bunch of fun for you! Show us your TT body!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mike Walker, NW AR on Sunday, January 25, 2015 - 06:12 pm:

Jason -- Yes, those boards were just glued together, with veneer applied to both sides.

Dan brought up a good point above, when he mentioned the piece of soft wood (Pine) used to repair his firewall. There is a lot of twisting pressure applied where the steering column bolts to the firewall, and you want a hard wood there. That's why they used Oak originally.

If you do decide to replace the firewall with new plywood, I recommend that you use Baltic Birch plywood. It is Birch all the way through, and it's good stuff. Most modern plywoods have a very soft core and the bolt holes would be prone to wallowing out. When that happens, your car has loose steering.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jason on Sunday, January 25, 2015 - 10:08 pm:

Dan, is that thin strip of metal above the firewall planks considered the cowl? I am really new to model Ts but I thought a cowl referred to a tapering piece of sheet metal that sloped down from under the windshield on out to the hood. I therefore thought this truck didnt have a cowl (again, I am new and know basically nothing of T's)

Heres a shot of the body.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dan Treace, North FL on Sunday, January 25, 2015 - 10:27 pm:

Jason

Ah...remember now you posted these pictures before. Super fine wood cab on your TT.

Thought it seems very much like the Mifflinburg Body, Mifflinburg PA. The cab has same overhang on the roof line, windshield is two part, and doors hinged, and the paneling similar to one of their bodies. Could be? :-)




Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dan Treace, North FL on Sunday, January 25, 2015 - 10:32 pm:

Close up on catalog page descriptions.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Jelf, Parkerfield KS on Sunday, January 25, 2015 - 10:43 pm:

Jason, one correction. Numbering of frames began Dec. 12, 1925. Motor No. 12,861,044. You may be right about your frame being earlier, but it wouldn't hurt to look.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John McGinnis in San Jose area, CA. on Monday, January 26, 2015 - 05:30 am:

From the appearance of the body mounts it looks like a late frame.
early body mount
Early body mount ('22)
late body mount
Late body mount ('26-'27)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jason on Monday, January 26, 2015 - 05:51 pm:

Dan, this is great info on the possible body maker. These are by far the closest resemblance to my cab. Do you have any more info on these bodies? I would really like to track down a set of blue prints but any additional info would be great.

Steve, I looked and there are definitely no numbers on the frame. (Unless rust has completely eaten it off but I'm not sure about that)

John, So did Ford send out the rolling chassis trucks with the body mounts and then the body makers had to just work with whatever mounts were there? So the early mounts had one hole and the later mounts had 4 holes? Do you know what year that change took place?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Donnie Brown North Central Arkansas on Monday, January 26, 2015 - 08:47 pm:

Jason, If you are going to try and save the rest of the wood in the body, and you have the skills and patience to do it. I would save the firewall. It can be done. It would take the better part of a day to clean, prep and re-glue the main lumber core. Pay attention to getting the joints a smooth as possible and aligned as much as possible. You my have to clamp the pieces between some angle iron to hold them in alignment. Do one or two pieces at a time if you have to. Then sand the completed lumber core to make it flat. Sand cross grain, and remove as little as possible. It does not have to be perfect. You can use a long flat piece of 2 X 4 with some 80 grit sandpaper on it to start with, and then go to 180 to finish. Do the block/level sanding by hand. Then you will need the veneer. Remember that the grain runs cross wise. You can glue it yourself on top of your table saw table if you have one. Put down a layer of newspaper or wax paper then the veneer, with glue on it and then the lumber core with glue on it, and then another layer of newspaper or wax paper (just in case) and then a good flat piece of 3/4 inch plywood on top of that, and then stack as much weight (concrete blocks ect) on top of it as you can, and not destroy the table saw. Do one piece of veneer at a time. You will need to cut and drill out the holes in the first veneer before gluing on the second. I sounds like a lot of work, but it is only time consuming, You just need to decide is it worth it to save the original vs buying a plywood repro... By the way that is a nice Truck .. :-)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dan Treace, North FL on Monday, January 26, 2015 - 09:28 pm:

Jason

Think so too, that likely your cab is a Mifflinburg product.

There is little to know, but you could try this site, its dedicated to the Mifflinburg Co.

http://www.enquip.com/Mifflinburg.html

I have a 1925 catalog in my collection, Cat. no. 26, so they had lots of styles over the years, but my guess is the body you have is a Mifflinburg 1925-26 style, and placed on your '26 chassis, perhaps from new. That makes it a nice one to try to restore.

The catalog only has photos/drawings and descriptions are brief, no plans.

This one factory photo from the catalog shows the skeleton of a cab to give you some idea of how yours is built.



As for frame rail stamp, check both sides on the top rail just behind the body bracket, sometimes you have to sand carefully to disclose, as the stamps can be faint. This one is on a left top frame rail, drivers side, most are on the passenger side.



As for the larger brackets, those came along '26-'27.

And commercial bodies were made to fit most times Ford brackets, or they could have special iron work to meet the needs of the body company.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By TOM on Tuesday, January 27, 2015 - 06:10 pm:

I have a 25 Square Cab. I assume this would also have the late body mount bracket with the four holes. Is this the case? How many rivets are used to hold that bracket on the frame, and what is the placement of the rivets?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By George_Cherry Hill NJ on Wednesday, January 28, 2015 - 09:19 am:

Jason,

My thought would be to seek out the one ton club guys and see what they have to say...not about the firewall, but about the rest of what you are thinking...

One question I have never found answered is that the FORDEX for 1923 (The sales manual made by home office) shows LOTS of commercial bodies being available and includes order sheets to be filled out. I do NOT know if this meant to book an order and then go find a body...or...did Ford actually broker a given body type? This has never been discussed to my knowledge. It is probably the later and since all the commercial body builders did pretty much the same thing it may have been dealer choice...

The FORDEX was republished as a poly-print maybe 40 years ago, not much demand, so never reprinted again...but the information is pretty neat to browse. Here is the page from the FORDEX that 'might' have applied to your truck???






Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jerry VanOoteghem - SE Michigan on Wednesday, January 28, 2015 - 10:47 am:

You could glue the sections back together but you'd have to re-veneer it to make it right. The new veneer would make it look new anyway so you might consider just going with new. I suppose you could just put new veneer on the "under-hood" area, since that looks the worst. It would keep the exterior looking original.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Kenneth W DeLong on Wednesday, January 28, 2015 - 03:23 pm:

Remember if you re do your stake rack's the carriage bolts heads go inside so not to tear your grain sacks! Bud.


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