WANTED 1927 T SPEEDO FIBRE GEAR IN GEARBOX DRIVEN SPEEDO

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Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2015: WANTED 1927 T SPEEDO FIBRE GEAR IN GEARBOX DRIVEN SPEEDO
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bob Trevan - Australia on Sunday, January 25, 2015 - 04:35 am:

Can anyone tell me were i can get the small fibre gear that is driven by the brass spiral cut gear in the gear box of a 1927 't''?.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By James Rodell, Jr. on Sunday, January 25, 2015 - 08:29 pm:

Are you referring to a Patterson speedometer drive
that replaces the transmission cover door?
I believe Tim Morsher had some made and was selling them 2-3 years ago here on the classifieds. Maybe he still has one available.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Keith Gumbinger, Kenosha, WI on Sunday, January 25, 2015 - 09:04 pm:

Hi Jim - I see that this is your first post on the Forum.

Welcome! :-)

Keith


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bob Trevan - Australia on Sunday, January 25, 2015 - 10:46 pm:

THANKS JAMES--Patterson speedo drive is correct.

I will try and contact Tim Mosher.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Rene Grahnert on Saturday, May 02, 2015 - 02:55 pm:

Hello I am from Germany and have a Ford model T 1926 with
also a Patterson Speedometer drive, and I trying for years to get an new pinion. Hope some one can help me.

Thank you
Rene


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Les Schubert on Saturday, May 02, 2015 - 03:35 pm:


This one has 10 teeth and I believe it is original

This one has 11 teeth and I suspect that it is new.
Obviously both are not useable
I have a couple of these drives and would be interested in a couple of new ones.
Some people have said that these drives were popular in Canada, which kind of would be consistent with Bob needing a gear. Not sure how Rene would fit into this


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Rene Grahnert on Saturday, May 02, 2015 - 03:48 pm:

My Ford was build in canada, maybe some one have some construction drawing ?
Thank you
Rene


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Rene Grahnert on Saturday, May 02, 2015 - 04:16 pm:

Sorry when I am in the wrong forum, but I am new here and it is hard to get some information of this car in Germany.
Rene


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Les Schubert on Saturday, May 02, 2015 - 05:02 pm:

Rene
Well that would be consistent with the opinions I have received over the years
My opinion is that a steel gear (and maybe case hardened) would be a better solution. Considering it is running on a big bronze gear


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Rene Grahnert on Sunday, May 03, 2015 - 04:34 am:

What size dose the gear have, maybe I can let rebuild it here in Germany.

Thank you


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bob Trevan - Australia on Tuesday, May 05, 2015 - 07:15 am:

After a long search I have managed to obtain the two brand new different ratio gears that were used at the time by PATTERSON.

I would prefer to have these gears made from something better than the material when made new as they are prone to self destruct very easy i am told,
ANY THOUGHTS OF A BETTER MATERIAL I COULD MAKE THE GEAR FROM THAT WOULD RUN HAPPY WITH THE BRASS DRIVE WHEEL ?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Les Schubert on Tuesday, May 05, 2015 - 10:26 am:

Bob
I would use case hardened steel


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Les Schubert on Tuesday, May 05, 2015 - 11:16 am:

Bob
I would "participate" in getting a good 3D computer drawing made of these. This would open up some options from CNC machining to 3D printing (potentially in PLA and then investment casting in different materials)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bill Harper - Keene, NH on Tuesday, May 05, 2015 - 11:17 am:

What about Delrin? It would be kinder to the brass gear in the transmission and yet is rather robust and also should hold up well to the heat. It machines nicely and has a low coefficient of friction.

Making a mold for injecting these, rather than machining them, would result in a higher up front cost, but once you have the mold it is no big deal to mount the mold into the machine, fill the hopper with pellets and squirt out a bushel of them.

My two cents worth, perhaps over valued. Bill


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Garry Potter on Tuesday, May 05, 2015 - 12:23 pm:

Rene
I have a Ford Handbuch for your Modell T that is printed in German. It is an original 64 pages in excellent shape published by Ford Motor Company A.G. in Berlin in Juli 1928.
I would be interested in selling this rare book. Are you interested ?
Garry


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Les Schubert on Tuesday, May 05, 2015 - 02:35 pm:

Bill
And you might very well be right.
The benefits of making the "3D cad drawing " is that it makes it possible to experiment with a number of different materials at competitive cost. So a few Delrin copies as well as other materials could be tried


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bob Trevan - Australia on Tuesday, May 05, 2015 - 05:44 pm:

Thanks guys--As i am in a country area it will need a trip to a city to get this rolling .

-IF THE 3D IMAGE IS THE WAY TO GO?

Were do you head for such work ?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Les Schubert on Tuesday, May 05, 2015 - 06:27 pm:

I'd start by talking to a CNC machining shop. They would need a drawing of this type to "import" into their computer to make such a object. If they're good guys they will be able to direct you. It is possible they might do it themselves,but then they will logically want to "own" the drawing, but have you pay for it. You didn't just "fall off the turnip truck " so you understand how things work!!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Les Schubert on Tuesday, May 05, 2015 - 06:29 pm:

Bob
Ask around locally, sometimes you will be pleasantly surprised


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Peter Kable - Kiama NSW OZ on Tuesday, May 05, 2015 - 07:01 pm:

Bob,
There is an advertiser in the Veteran car Clubs Magazine "Spit and Polish"who does gear cutting and CNC work ( inside back cover. top left ad)

As he is willing to take on old car work he might be the guy to start with.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Les Schubert on Tuesday, May 05, 2015 - 07:38 pm:

Bob
What Peter says might be the guy!!
Anyway if he is, then I am interested, but would prefer a gear in steel and I would then get it either nitrided or case hardened, depending on the type of steel he wants to do.
So why steel for me;
If you look at any industrial worm gear box, it will have a steel worm running on a bronze gear (and the gear in the speedo drive is bronze, not brass as some have said). Also consider that the TT rear end is the same.
Second consider that the worm has a joint in it. Unless this joint is absolutely perfect, it is going to be hard on a fibre or plastic gear
Third I am quite prepared to be the "guinea pig" for the steel gear. I will install it in my '27 and drive it. If I tear up the bronze gear it is my loss.
You mention that you have two different tooth count sample gears. I would like a copy of each one.
All the best
Les


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bob Trevan - Australia on Tuesday, May 05, 2015 - 10:33 pm:

Thanks Peter & Les..

Re. the two gears -- I assume that either is to suit either the 21''or 19'' wheels?
I WILL COME BACK TO YOU LES AS TO WHAT FIND IN AUSTRALIA..


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Peter Kable - Kiama NSW OZ on Tuesday, May 05, 2015 - 11:41 pm:

Could be that the fibre gear is to reduce noise from the speedo drive.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bob Trevan - Australia on Wednesday, May 06, 2015 - 05:11 am:

Hi Peter ---Apparently no noise at all after a short time.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bruce Csorba (Australia) on Wednesday, May 06, 2015 - 06:54 am:

Hi Bob, Les Peter, and others.
I once had a couple of these including a new old stock one.
I just remembered where the installation instructions were.
There are three different transmission gears (3, 4, 5 tooth) and 5 different drive gears (10, 11, 12, 13, 14 tooth to suit cars and trucks).
Will try to scan and post tomorrow.

Regards,
Bruce


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Les Schubert on Wednesday, May 06, 2015 - 11:44 am:

I have two of the 4 tooth and one of the three tooth


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Les Schubert on Wednesday, May 06, 2015 - 11:59 am:


Perhaps these pictures of the "joint" in the bronze gears will illustrate why I don't think a fibre or plastic gear is a good choice.
The life of a "soft" gear is going to be short unless a person is incredibly lucky. The probability of not having a bit of "edge" at the joint in the bronze gear is really low. A hardened steel gear will tolerate this edge and will also remove and high spot quickly.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bill Harper - Keene, NH on Wednesday, May 06, 2015 - 12:19 pm:

Good point, Les. I didn't (but should have) realized that the internal gear would be in two pieces for easy in car installation. A metal driven gear would have a better chance of survival.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bob Trevan - Australia on Wednesday, May 06, 2015 - 08:57 pm:

Welcome in Bruce--With all these different gear teeth you mention and different brass drive gears from Les .
Question now is -- what ratio suits what? - be it a car or truck [with it's different diff ratios from FORD?

My new gears are both 10 teeth but have a different OD to
each other.

NOW WHAT ?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Les Schubert on Wednesday, May 06, 2015 - 09:29 pm:

Bob
My bronze gears are all the same diameter
The holes in the cover are slotted to allow about 1/2" of adjustments to the tooth engagement
How many bronze gears do you have?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bruce Csorba (Australia) on Wednesday, May 06, 2015 - 10:53 pm:

Here are the instruction scans.
They should answer a lot of questions.
Regards,
Bruce
Patterson parts list

Patterson Install pics


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bob Trevan - Australia on Wednesday, May 06, 2015 - 11:57 pm:

Sorry Les --What i was trying to say was that i think the brass gear can have a different amount of leed ins.[teeth]?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Les Schubert on Thursday, May 07, 2015 - 12:04 am:

Bob
Studying the instructions Bruce posted, I'm guessing that Paterson didn't concern themselves about actually "pairing " the various different gears
Bruce
Thank you for posting this brochure. Really helpful


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bob Trevan - Australia on Thursday, May 07, 2015 - 04:57 pm:

NOW WHAY-After printing of Bruce's chart it seems as though i can adventually get my 1926-7 car with a working speedo together with others useing the same gear as i have.
.
IT WOULD BE NICE TO HELP OTHERS BUT WOULD NEED [as new] SAMPLE EACH RATIO GEAR TO COPY.

ANY SUGGESTION GUYS .


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Les Schubert on Thursday, May 07, 2015 - 10:20 pm:

I spent some time talking to a guy who does 3D printing and got some interesting ideas
1. See if you can get the original gears you have 3D scanned
2. with a 3D scan, there are various softwares that can then convert it to a CNC useable file
3. At that stage the options;
a. Machine it with conventional equipment
b. Create a wax original and then cast it
c. Print a "sintered metal " gear
d. Machine with CNC equipment
e. Probably other choices as well


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bob Trevan - Australia on Thursday, May 07, 2015 - 11:35 pm:

Thank you Les,
I will take this info to my nearest city and ask around as to it all being able to be done there .

I WILL KEEP IN TOUCH


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