In reference to the recent "replica" car comments on some of the forum posts, I need some help.
I have an opportunity to purchase a replica quadricycle, and I need your help.
I know it's a replica, has a good reputation for quality, and I would not represent it as anything else but a REPLICA for learning purposes at car shows and schools (which we do now with our Model T's).
Do you think this is a wise purchase, and what would be your best guesstimate as to a prudent cost of such a replica?
I respect the knowledge of the forum member and would appreciate any help you can give me.
I think it depends on the quality of the replication. A poor attempt would be worth a few hundred, and an excellent one thousands. How many thousands? Somebody smarter than I am will have to tell you that.
I believe Ford commissioned 6 authentic replicas in 1963, so they are floating around out there and suspect carry a hefty price.
Google it and you get a bunch of them, with several different people credited.
Agree with Steve, depends on how close to original you have to be.
Search of the web will find many hits on Ford Quadricycle.
The high end is perhaps this replica, the builder claims to be making 10 additional to recoup expenses. Saw one on web site overseas asking price 24,000 Pounds.
Or saw some for as little as $2500 that looked cute, buggy body, wheels that looked right, but with Briggs &Stratton 12hp motor. Some of the examples are rather crude for the most part.
As for generating much interest at car shows, would be the question. Most likely not. Too much of a novelty or museum piece to gather excitement as it doesn't look like a 'car'
Sure its History for Ford, but a Model T in barn shape, running, seems to gather a lot more attention than a shiny brass 4 wheel thingy with a tiller. Just IMO. No charge Others can chime in.
George DeAngelis built 3 Quadricycle replicas. One in 1963, and two others a few years later. The original is on display in the Driving America exhibit at The Henry Ford. Two of the replicas are also at The Henry Ford, one is identical to the original in its current configuration, and one is on display in the Bagley Ave shop out in the village. The latter is in the original 1896 configuration with two wooden tanks in the back on either side of the engine. The third has been retained by The Ford Motor Company and is on display in the garage at the Fairlane Estate.
Trent Boggess - currently in Deaborn
Thank you all. This one is from a Spanish museum, and they are asking 24,000 Euros (probably the same one Dan was talking about. About $26,000-$27,000 depending on the conversion rate from day to day).
Anyone have a ballpark figure of the value? I'm not saying this is the quality of the George DeAngelis replicas (I've never seen them), but does anyone know a range on the value of those as a comparison?
As you can see from the pictures this doesn't have a Briggs and Stratton engine and is supposedly very close to original, if not exact.
Again, before I make a fool of myself, any guesstimates as to value?
I would appreciate it gratefully. Thank you.
Have one my dad built, it really attracts attention. He was inspired by the ones built by George DeAngelo. Dave Dunlavy has a web site with information and pictures of most of the ones that have been built. Dave built one himself. Would suggest you Google him and look. It is very interesting. Mine is on there too. There are videos of some of them in operation.
Bob, Dave Dunlavy who can be contacted through the Early Ford Registry, has built or is building a quadricycle replica. Might be informative to chat with him.
Thank you everyone. I just talked to Dave and he was a wealth of information.
I've been given the names of a couple of other people to talk to and will continue to research this. It would be great for volunteering at schools, retirement homes, etc like we do with our current T's now.
Thank you again for your help and advice.
Bob. I replied to you pm. Hope I did it right.
Harry, yes you did. Thank you so much again for your help.
Not to be a wet blanket, but to me that is a hell of a lot of money for a fake just to show it off at schools and car shows. I guess I would be part of that's neat and walk right by it and drool over your 14. Now if you were to get the plans and build one your self, that would be a whole different story.
I have been thrashed with the wet noodle a few times for snide remarks I have made about so-called replica cars and some owners (I am sure I deserved it). The fact is, I have a great deal of respect for faithful recreations of historically significant automobiles. Important one-only cars, or vehicles that otherwise no longer exist, cannot be seen, heard, or experienced by more than a very select few people otherwise.
So-called "replicas", of marginal quality and using common modern (ish) motors etc, can be built rather cheaply, and therefore should not be worth much. However, quality recreations are another matter altogether.
IF (I seem to be using that big IF often lately), IF a person has the time, equipment, tools, and ability, one could probably build such a high quality replica for a couple thousand dollars, and possibly about a thousand hours (and maybe more) of work. On the other hand, IF (there it is again) one has the money, and wants to, I doubt that you could have one made by a good machinist for much under fifty thousand dollars. It costs a lot more to have someone else's work duplicated than it does to design and create your own thing around the materials you have at hand.
I do get curious from time to time about how many such recreations of Henry's Quadracycle have been made? And by how many different people? I also wonder how correct are most of them, really? Some years ago, I knew a fellow that built two of them. One of them was for for a very well known collector, and while he was tooled up, he built one for himself. He often spoke of the extensive research, trips to the Henry Ford, inspections of both the original car and the replica that the museum had at the time. He talked about several people he dealt with, but never mentioned any names to me. I have sometimes since wondered if one of the people he met with may have been Dave Dunlavy.
I don't know how many quality recreations have been made? What they are worth will depend a lot on how well made they are, and how correctly made they are. My advice to anyone considering buying one would be to look it over very carefully for the first of those two factors. For the second? Some really good research online would be a good start. Again, examine both the online photos and the car in question very carefully. At some time, I had looked at some really good information online. But I apparently no longer have the links to it.
Drive carefully, and enjoy, W2
For more information and lots of photos/videos, here is Dave's web page dealing with the Quad.
In building any replica, of a whole car, or just a particular part, it is incredibly tempting to take shortcuts like using modern components where they don't show or modern fasteners or 3D printing, etc. Dedication to making a true replica is definitely not the easy way to do things and therefore, not often done. When it is however, the end result can be stunning... and expensive. I make reproduction phonograph parts for a high end collector. He recently had me make a small tin cash box for a coin-op phonograph. The original was made from tin plated sheet metal. It's not easy to find tinplate any more but I definitely could not use galvanized or bare steel. Lots of searching later and I got tinplate of the same thickness. Then, replicated all the seams and soldered using an old fashioned iron. Came out pretty nice.
Got a little "drift" in my posting above. The point I meant to make was, if this quad is really done well, meaning you can find no "modern" shortcuts, it could well be worth the asking price. You just gotta ask yourself if you want to spend that much money on a car that will be a largely static representation of automotive history, versus something that can be extensively driven. Neither choice is right or wrong, just depends on your desires.
"Henry Ford's first car, the Model T, was made to run on ethanol."
That was just one of the BS stories started by big Ag in about 2004, and picked up by the duped conservationists to foist ethanol on us.
What did Henry use in the Quadricycle?
Wayne, thank you for your advice and support (IF that's what it was? )
Mark, I appreciate your opinion also. That's why I asked the question on the forum. I want to see others opinions, either positive or negative.That's the help and want and need. Thank you.
To address some of the other questions, I realize it is totally a REPLICA, and will be presented as one (albeit a very correct one). But no shortcuts have been taken, it is very correct, and it was built by two very talented machinists from De Angelis' blue prints. All necessary parts were cast, not just the closest thing picked up at the local hardware store. It runs just as well as the original, and is not a static display, nor will it be used solely as a static display. It will be driven to further enhance the experience, education, and knowledge of Henry's original Quad.
Thank you again for all of your input, whether supportive or not! This is what I was looking for from forum members!
At the time would you rather have bought from American Farmers or those who would kill us?? Bud.
I am not sure what I can offer is much support? Moral support? Yes.
I think OUR history is very important, to all of us. As I mentioned on another history based forum a couple days ago, "I am also pleased to see some younger generation individuals taking so much interest in OUR recent past. The antique automobiles I love so much are a major part of all OUR history. Whether for good or for bad. NO ONE in this world today would be where they are if not for all the history of the past hundred plus years.
One of my long-time favorite sayings is; "You cannot know where you are going, unless you know where you are. And you cannot truly know where you are, unless you know where you were.""
Most people need to see things to get any real feel for them. Pictures in a book or on a computer screen by themselves just doesn't quite do it. Anyone who can afford to, and shows good, faithful, recreations such as these does as much or more good as model T clubs showing their Ts at schools. I think most of us see the value in that.
For me myself, and totally selfish reasons. I hope you do get it! Maybe you will take it to Bakersfield and I may be able to watch you drive it around. I would enjoy that (I don't know yet if I will be able to make Bakersfield yet this year or not, money is really tight). I have been fortunate enough to see a couple of the 1886 Benz recreations being driven around. Although I have seen a couple of the Quadracycle recreations (one was running when I was too far away to get a really good look and listen), I have not yet seen one up close while running or being driven.
Good luck! I look forward to hearing about it if you do get this, or another one.
Drive carefully, and do enjoy, W2
My Dad got the idea from the June issue of Popular Mechanics which featured George DeAngelo and the two he built. That was in 1963. Dad's ran down the road under its own power in 2001. There is a nice article on it on line at "No Need for Speed". There were no blue prints available at that time. A person in California requested what information that Dad had developed. Have lost his name now but I know he took the information to two machine shops. The low bid to build it was $150,000.00. He did not have one built. When I show mine, I make sure that people know that it is a replica of the one Henry Ford built. People are amazed to see it run.
There is a great deal of difference between a "fake" and a faithful replica which is represented as such.
Just as folks are amazed at our Model T's when they see them and can see them being driven (or even get to ride in them!), I think folks would be amazed at a precursor to the Model T, which also happened to be the first automobile that Henry Ford built many years before the Model T was developed. I know I would be, and I see Model T's every day.
Although standing in the presence of the "real" Quadricycle is a moment of reverence for guys like us, to the general public who are not Model T'ers, seeing an accurate reproduction of it would surely be impressive and a learning experience.
Bob -- I think your desire to use a replica such as this one to spread knowledge about the early history of the automobile is a noble one, and I wish you a great deal of success in your endeavor.
What Mike said....
If anyone did a search for the article on my Dad building the quad that I now have, put in your search engine, Google or others, "No Need For Speed Tom Daw". It should come up for you. Sorry to those of you that tried and it did not come up. That is a 1911 in the back ground. I show it quite a bit. The quad fits in the bed of the pick up. A T goes on the trailer behind.
Mike and Stan--Thanks for the clarification and support. That's what I've been trying to get across. . . .but apparently not very well, because I've been taking a beating on the net! Appreciate your advice and help.
2 are being built here in Australia that I know of, I've seen one of them at the 1/2 way mark, will love to see the finished article.
I once owned one of the batch that were made in Melbourne for FORD AUSTRALIA to do a 60 year celebration event back in 1963 .
I drove it a few times and found it to be a dangerous piece of machinery and not helped by it's high gearing.
Thank you. Still looking for anymore advice or help.
My two cents; when I had the pleasure of driving the replica that Dave Dunlavy built, it didn't matter to me that it was only a replica. The thing was a hoot to drive. I'd love to have one.
On the other hand, I can't imagine paying $27,000 for one. For that money, you can purchase a roadworthy genuine pre-T automobile. Right now, there's an 80% finished Model N restoration project for sale on the HCCA website for less money.
Or a new Dawwoo or a Dihatsu truck or a used Mercedes that needs $15000 worth or work or a nice new Harley.
Money is relative. Some people have more of it than others and like to spend it on things they enjoy. My Chiropractor just bought a new set of Golf clubs and is headed to Scottsdale in a couple weeks to try them out. I can think of no longer day than driving a rented golf cart around smacking a little ball. It's all what you like. It's all what is important to you.
Bob, if it is a well built replica and you want it - I know you can easily afford it - buy it and don't worry about what anybody else thinks. I loved driving Dave's around and next time I'm in So Cal I'll come down and we'll fire yours up and take it for a ride past some cemeteries where a grave plot costs a lot more than the $30,000 this is going to cost you. Spend it while you're here to enjoy it and don't worry about the cheap shots.
Stan, I wasn't throwing out a cheap shot. I was responding to Bob's request for opinions.
When contemplating a toy purchase, I like to compare the asking price with that of similar toys that I might like, and evaluate which I'd rather have. That technique helped me to choose a complete, running '08 Maxwell over a Model R project last fall. Comparing a replica quadricycle to a Model N kind of fits into that model.
With all due respect, I feel that Harleys and golf clubs are irrelevant to this discussion.
I don't think Stan was referring to your comment. He was referring to some off-forum comments I've received.
Your line of reasoning is exactly what I've been thinking about, and part of the reason I've asked for help here on the forum. I appreciate your comments.
Well, then I'm with Stan. To heck with the off forum naysayers!
The market on pre-T automobiles is so small the it's very difficult to establish a value. When I bought my Maxwell, a rare LC, I could only find two documented sales of the same model in the last eight years. That's a small sample to use to establish a typical value.
The market for quality reproductions of a historic one-off car will be much the same. In the end, it's your budget and your toy. You'll have to decide what the enjoyment of owning it and sharing the experience with others is worth to you.
Good for you, Bob.
I'd say buy the one that is the most faithful reproduction, if you can determine that.
This one is. It's off the original George DeAngelis blueprints, everything cast that should be. Everyone I've talked to who owns quads or have seen this Quad say it is quality.
I just answered someone off-forum that said I could buy a genuine antique car for that amount (I think that was mentioned above also). Again, I realize it's a replica, but it represents something different historically, educationally, and physically. It's kind of the (replica) missing link from horse and buggy days. If I bought a real car for that amount, it wouldn't be that much different from the T's I own now. Anyway, that's my reasoning for now! Maybe foolish?
Thank you Eric and Ralph.
Some wise sage once said:"Variety is the Spice of Life"...
How dull life would be if we all lived in original Levittown houses of the same color & shape, watched the same sport & played the same games, collected the same toys & lived the same lifestyle.
Bob, the bottom line is the money you spend is yours that you have earned, is yours to spend as you want, to enjoy the things that float your boat. Life is short...it's temporary...while you're here and have the ability to move about, "Just Do It".
Good Luck !
While maybe I should have used the work "replica" in my reply, Bob asked our opinions and that's what we are giving him. It is up to him to sort through what has been said, what he thinks and make his own mind up in the end. If he decides to get it, great! I really hope he does enjoys it to the fullest.
Thanks guys. I appreciate your input (pro or con) more than you might realize!