1913 Touring barn find

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Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2015: 1913 Touring barn find
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Joseph A. Stearns on Thursday, February 05, 2015 - 03:20 pm:

Looking for comments and valve. Thanks. Joe



Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Wayne Sheldon, Grass Valley, CA on Thursday, February 05, 2015 - 03:38 pm:

The first comment will probably be that more, bigger, and better photos are needed in order to tell much about it. What little I can see looks like a nice T to get or have. It looks to be in an awfully nice barn? So has it been moved already? You ask about value? Are you needing to sell it?
Good photos of both sides of the engine, the front axle, the rear end, body and interior would help a lot!
Good luck! Drive carefully, and enjoy, W2


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Joseph A. Stearns on Thursday, February 05, 2015 - 04:22 pm:

Wayne, I agree that picture is WAY too small. I have trouble re-sizing pictures and will try again soon. No, I am not trying to sell it ---I'm just looking at it. Joe


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Joseph A. Stearns on Thursday, February 05, 2015 - 06:21 pm:

Here are more pictures---I Hope!!

I would like comments on this car --how correct?--what do you see? --what would be a fair price to pay? Thanks, Joe.





Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Joseph A. Stearns on Thursday, February 05, 2015 - 06:24 pm:

More





Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Joseph A. Stearns on Thursday, February 05, 2015 - 06:28 pm:

More





Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Joseph A. Stearns on Thursday, February 05, 2015 - 06:30 pm:

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Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Greg sarky K on Thursday, February 05, 2015 - 06:31 pm:

B engine, 1912 October engine?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By James J. Lyons III - West Virginia on Thursday, February 05, 2015 - 06:46 pm:

Nice Car Joseph. If the owner knows what he has, he's going to make you pay at least 10K+ for it. That car will have no problem fetching 12K or more on Ebay if it's cleaned up, well described and given the right sales pitch. Does it have the 12 rivet differential? Have you crawled under it to see if it has the 2 piece shaft or the early frame?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Erik Johnson on Thursday, February 05, 2015 - 06:57 pm:

Looks like the car has a typical 1950s repaint and steering wheel refinish, etc.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bill Elliott on Thursday, February 05, 2015 - 07:01 pm:

Sure looks good! Usable original leather interior and that sure looks like an original exhaust - notice the nice, gentle curve around the transmission cover? Hard to find repops that are that gentle. I agree every bit with James - that car could easily hit 12 to 15K when cleaned up, depending on other factors mentioned (correct differential). The engine number seems too low for a 1912/13. 1913 starts at roughly 183500, doesn't it? And it almost looks like a metal, slant lid coil box not the wooden type.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Greg sarky K on Thursday, February 05, 2015 - 07:16 pm:

Not too low for B engines..I think this is a 1912 fall of October engine..


In the summer and early fall of 1912 engines were made in a separate plant (only known as "Detroit" in the records, and these engines were given "B" numbers 1 through 12,247. These B-series engines were installed in random order beginning in October and ending in December 1912. To add to the confusion, there is a gap in the regular serial number sequence of 12,247 numbers, somewhere between 157,425 and 170,000. We have found no evidence of engine numbers in the 158,000 to 169,000 range. During these three months, a mixture of the B-numbers and the regular numbers were used and by the end of December all the B-numbers were used.

It appears that the engines of this period were warehoused and removed at random, sort of a last in, first out sequence. For example, B-numbers in the B-1,000 to B8,000 range were used in October, B-7 to B-12,000 in November, and B-5,000 to B-12,000 in December.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Roger Karlsson, southern Sweden on Thursday, February 05, 2015 - 07:17 pm:

For more info on the engines with B serial numbers see the encyclopedia: www.mtfca.com/encyclo/sernos.htm

From the info there it seems this car with a B5000 # may have been built in october or december of 1912, but not november, perhaps due to the order the engines were stored and removed from a warehouse?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Joseph A. Stearns on Thursday, February 05, 2015 - 07:47 pm:

James, It has a one piece drive shaft not two. The differential has been changed out and looks like the one in my 1915. I'm not sure what the early frame looks like--can you tell me what to look for? I did look for reinforcement at the rear under the body and found none--al found no cracking and the doors fit just fine.

Bill, the coil box is metal --I will try to post a better picture. You mentioned that the leather looked to be usable--I was wondering about that--it is actually all there but very hard--can that be treated to be soft and usable? Thanks. Joe





Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By James J. Lyons III - West Virginia on Thursday, February 05, 2015 - 08:57 pm:

Joseph - THe early frame has cast brackets hooked to each end of the rear frame crossmember which the body bolts to. The later frame just has a much longer cross member that is simple and made of one piece. If you have a one-piece driveshaft on what appears to be an early car, it probably got changed along with the differential. 12 rivet rears are easy to find.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Clayton Swanson on Thursday, February 05, 2015 - 09:24 pm:

17and up coil box


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Allan Bennett - Australia on Thursday, February 05, 2015 - 09:42 pm:

The engine in my Haigh's chocolate van is number B597. The assembly date stamped on the transmission shaft was 26 9 12.

Just for interest.

Allan from down under.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bill Elliott on Thursday, February 05, 2015 - 09:52 pm:

Joseph, the leather can indeed be softened up. If it's the early 1913 it should have leather on both the seat cushions and the backs but some were a combination of real and leatherette. Are the cushions still original and usable? Also, do you know if the side lamps are there? The top irons appear to be the later rectangular ones and not the oval socket. I'm assuming the car is somewhere in our great state of Michigan? Sounds like a nice, early '13 to add to your collection!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jeff Perkins on Thursday, February 05, 2015 - 10:42 pm:

Years ago my Father-in-Law gave me a jar of oil marked "boot oil" and told me it would soften the old hard leather in my early 1913 T (eng. # B-339!). It worked beautifully and made the leather softer and more pliable. Years later when asked he told me it was bear grease aka rendered bear fat! I really have no idea where one could get some now but it sure did work!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Rick J. Gunter on Thursday, February 05, 2015 - 11:07 pm:

It is a very early 1913 and very desirable. It would be early enough to correctly have the pin stripes. An original rear axle for 1913 is not difficult to find. It probably had a wooden coil box when it was new.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Erik Barrett in Auburn Ca. on Thursday, February 05, 2015 - 11:18 pm:

Nice car, valuable and historically significant. That, however, is no barn. How about some pics of the one where it was found?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Joseph A. Stearns on Friday, February 06, 2015 - 06:41 am:

Thanks everyone for the comments on this car-- I learned a lot. I will share a bit of the history as it was told to me.
This Model T has now been passed down to the son as his father is gone and his mother recently passed away--in her 90's. I'm not sure if they bought it new. It also filled in as the local mail delivery vehicle in years past. It had been stored at the family farm not sure where but the son moved it into town and built a new modern barn where he stores his various toys and it has been there for many years. He seems to have no real attachment to the this particular car but is in fact a "car Man" and has other non-model T's in his collection.

My thinking was to work on making it usable and safe, and not restore it beyond finding the correct parts for it which should be fun. When the weather gets better I will check it out some more and see if I can make a deal with him. I welcome any additional thoughts on this car and I will let you know how I make out in the spring. Thanks again, Joe


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Don Booth@ Bay City, Mi on Friday, February 06, 2015 - 07:08 am:

I'd jump on that one Joe !! Sweet T ...


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Seth from NC on Friday, February 06, 2015 - 07:35 am:

Looks like an exhaust cutout with a nice pedal to activate it mounted to the floor. Does it have an exhaust whistle?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ken Parker on Friday, February 06, 2015 - 08:05 am:

Joseph,

The only major problem I can determine is..... It's not in my shop! <grin>

I have been commenting about running the gas headlights on the 1913-14's and I would like to point out a little part I see in your photos that has been discussed on the forum lately but other than mine, I have never seen on another car.

In the left photo of the last two posted, you have shown the gas line rail clamp for the acetylene supply to the front headlights. My car was built about six or seven months later and is the same.

It is the small clamp on the edge of the frame with the square nut on it. It is visible in the photo just above the cam of the transmission. It should also have a cotter pin in it. The gas line to the front was metal and small enough to slide through that clamp.

In addition to Greg's comment above:
If the engine assembly is original from Ford, the date stamped on the transmission stub shaft will date the engine assembly within a week. It could confirm some of what we have read about the "B" blocks.

Were the "B" blocks stored as blocks or were they stored as complete engine assemblies and pulled at random to put in cars? This car could answer that.

Also, that firewall looks original. Maybe John can tell us from the photos. If so, a metal coil box may have been on that car since it was built. The early metal flat top coil box will leave the exact outline that can be seen on your photos. Could have been changed to the metal but I don't know if the mounting hole positions are the same as the wood box. Anyone know or have an example of an original wood box. Could help on that question as well. The flat top metal coil boxes take the standard coils but when did Ford begin using them? (I see what looks to be a slant top. The holes on them are the same as the flat top)

Any photos regarding the rear door body problems Ford had with the 1913 style tourings may add information about that as well. Beaudette made bodies were supposed to not be a problem during this time period but flanges and supports were added to others to keep the door sills from breaking. The "B" will be on the kick plate of the front or back seat and Hap will surely appreciate the body maker stamps on the front seat.

Thank you Joseph for the great photos.

Ken in Texas

(Message edited by drkbp on February 06, 2015)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By James J. Lyons III - West Virginia on Friday, February 06, 2015 - 09:06 am:

I'd bet the farm that this car had a wood coil box. My 13 is 299,xxx which is a late 13 of June/July manufacture and I'm 99.9% certain that it had a wooden KW box. You can see the impressions from the mounting hardware from a KW type box. Kim Dobbins has an original, un-tampered 13 that was made just a few days prior to mine and his still has the original KW box in it. One of the clues is very obvious. When a newly discovered 13 surfaces with a later model coil box that doesn't belong, most likely it's because the wood box crapped out and they needed to replace it. The metal boxes were robust and lasted. Often they are still in the car. This, combined with the number of original later 13 examples with wood units bolsters the theory that the wooden coil boxes were used late into 13 production and almost to the 14 models.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By R.V. Anderson on Friday, February 06, 2015 - 09:13 am:

"When a newly discovered 13 surfaces with a later model coil box that doesn't belong, most likely it's because the wood box crapped out and they needed to replace it."

Not necessarily. The owner may have decided to take advantage of Ford's "update" offer: his wood box and $10 would have gotten him the new metal box. Or perhaps he had a Heinze or a Kingston box (both still supplied on new Ts in '13), needed points, couldn't get new ones, and the local Ford supplier told him that his only option was the new metal box.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John Wightman on Friday, February 06, 2015 - 10:20 am:

Ken, you wrote:

I have been commenting about running the gas headlights on the 1913-14's and I would like to point out a little part I see in your photos that has been discussed on the forum lately but other than mine, I have never seen on another car.

In the left photo of the last two posted, you have shown the gas line rail clamp for the acetylene supply to the front headlights. My car was built about six or seven months later and is the same.

It is the small clamp on the edge of the frame with the square nut on it. It is visible in the photo just above the cam of the transmission. It should also have a cotter pin in it. The gas line to the front was metal and small enough to slide through that clamp."



Unfortunately I have misplaced the babyfood jar that holds the original clamps and bolts from my car during the restoration process somewhere, and I need to make a set to install my gas tube. As I recall, they're just flat metal, with a half circle at the end so each piece of the pair of clamps could hold the tube. Is that correct? Or maybe someone oils post a close-up photo of the clamps. Thanks Rollie


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ken Parker on Friday, February 06, 2015 - 10:52 am:

R.V.,

I have 312,XXX and it didn't have its original coil box (had a slant top in it like this 1913). I put in an original "Ford" flat top metal coil box I am running today.

The engine/car for 312,XXX was assembled in the first two weeks of July 1913. This is the stub shaft out of 312,XXX and you can see the 7-11-13 date in the picture.




The metal coil box uses the regular Ford coils. A friend of mine here in Houston has 335,XXX and his coil box is metal too. Car 299,XXX would be a very late 1913 built at the end of June or shortly before 312,XXX at least three months after Ford had established part numbers and such probably to handle the "update" you refer to R.V.

Doesn't seem likely that Ford would continue to install the timing trouble plagued wood coil boxes in production line cars after they had solved the timing issues of the old style coils before March of 1913.

However, anything is possible; What say you R.V.?

I don't have a wood 1913 coil box but I thought those coils are a different size.

Also, R.V. do you know how to tell the difference in the metal flat top coil boxes? In Bruce's Book, he refers to Ford and others making them but I can't see how you tell the difference. I have three of them.

Ken in Texas


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Joseph A. Stearns on Friday, February 06, 2015 - 10:54 am:

Thought I would try to answer some questions that have been raised.

Bill Elliott asked about the side lamps. Yes they are there in a box. Yes, the car is in Michigan. In fact there are a number of boxes--I did not paw through them--wish I had--next visit for sure.

Seth noted the exhaust cutout and pedal--I did not see an exhaust whistle.

Ken Parker observed a small clamp in recent picture used for the acetylene line. Yes, I see in the picture too-- good eye--what was the purpose of the cotter pin you mentioned and where would it go?

Ken, James, and R.V. All had comments on the coil box. In one of the boxes there were pieces of a coil box and some additional coils as well--I did dig through the box but I will try to post a picture it is kinda dark and may not show too much.

Once again, thanks for all the feed back--I'm impressed!! Joe





Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By James J. Lyons III - West Virginia on Friday, February 06, 2015 - 11:17 am:

R.V. I think you just confirmed my point. By your statement (if I understand correctly), it means that either way, those cars potentially had wood boxes and for whatever reason, they were replaced. If the wood boxes were abandoned by Ford early in the year, then the majority of 13's would contain the first generation metal Ford box. My experience has been that this is not the case. Some have them, but many cars that surface have later boxes of various types. Again, I point to Kim Dobbins car which is a late 13 (June car) that sports what appears to be the original KW unit. Always something interesting with old Model T's. :-)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By James J. Lyons III - West Virginia on Friday, February 06, 2015 - 11:23 am:

While it certainly isn't conclusive, this is what I found on my late 13...

wall


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By R.V. Anderson on Friday, February 06, 2015 - 11:54 am:

Ken, Ford started supplying the metal box and standardized coils late in '13, so your car as well as your friend's very likely have their original boxes.

I'm not sure what you mean about the wood boxes having timing trouble. The individual units were tough to synchronize exactly, but that was hardly solved by the switch to the later setup.

You are correct that the earliest K-W coils, part #T-4681 (often referred to as "the 1913 coil), were somewhat larger than the later, standard coil. T-4681 units are 5-3/8" x 3-1/4" x 2-1/4". The later units are 5" x 3-1/2" x 2-1/8". In addition, the earlier coil has its contacts in different locations than the later one. This early coil was first used in late 1912, and by late (calendar) '13 the complete coil (Ford's term for the box and coils together) was no longer supplied; only its parts for repairs.

I also have not been able to tell the difference in the metal boxes' manufacturers. The switch plates were made by different suppliers, and there you can tell one maker's from the others: the plates made by Diamond have a small diamond on the face, just below the keyhole. The standard-dimension coil units supplied by Heinze and Kingston can be easily distinguished from one another and from Ford and K-W units, and since surviving early coil boxes having one of these makes usually have all four the same, it may be that Bruce concluded that the box was also made by the same maker.

Jim, you are correct that you and I both agree that the wood boxes were often replaced. My point was that it wasn't necessarily a defect or a failure that was the cause of it.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By James J. Lyons III - West Virginia on Friday, February 06, 2015 - 12:00 pm:

R.V.... Gotcha


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Wayne Sheldon, Grass Valley, CA on Friday, February 06, 2015 - 05:34 pm:

This has turned into a really good discussion! Wonderful! And some great photos of what looks to be a really good car.
My thanks to all.

Joseph S, Good luck with that T.
Drive carefully, and enjoy, W2


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Joseph A. Stearns on Friday, February 06, 2015 - 06:27 pm:

Wayne, I agree concerning the good input and educational background that was provided by our model T family.
The 1913 year was one of the "transition years" that offered a variety of correct conditions for your car some depending on the time period in which the car was built ie coil box-- wooden or metal and coils,upholstery-all leather or some leather, body color and color striping or not and drive shaft configuration to mention a few. Bruce McCalley's book "Model T Ford" 1913 discusses these items and offers pictures to show the variation within the 1913 model year. For me, that is what is fascinating about our hobby. Words like "always and never don't seem to work very will when describing these transitional years.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ken Parker on Friday, February 06, 2015 - 11:13 pm:

R.V.,

I thought the earlier coils were a problem, those in the wood boxes and that a master vibrator was often used. I had thought the evolution to the standard size coil used in the 1913 metal flat top coil box had solved that coil/timing problem. I didn't mean the wood box was a problem.

My 312,XXX must have had a metal coil box because I have never seen a 1914 "style" touring with a wood coil box in it. By the end of June 1913 or beginning of July, Beaudette touring car bodies of the 1914 style were in production. 312,XXX is one of those very early 1914 style touring cars.

Those early 1914's use parts of the 1913 touring cars and are easy to spot.

R.V., Do the mounting holes for the wood box and the metal box used in 1913 match up?

I know the hole pattern for the upper four/lower four and mag and battery are all the same relative to each other, but do the metal and wood both have the same hole spacing relative to the ten center ceramics?

I also agree. This has been a great thread and thanks to all that have been in it.

Ken in Texas


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By James J. Lyons III - West Virginia on Saturday, February 07, 2015 - 06:16 am:

Ken,
The answer is "yes". Attached is a photo of my Kw carcass (with correct hardware) and a metal box sitting on top. The pic is that great, but the mounting holes for the metal and wood box match in both length and width. Obviously, the tolerances are going to vary since production back then was crude compared to today's standards, but the slop in the holes of the firewall more than make up for any dimensional variances.box


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By James J. Lyons III - West Virginia on Saturday, February 07, 2015 - 06:17 am:

Yea,that was supposed to read, "the pic ISN'T that great..."


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ken Parker on Saturday, February 07, 2015 - 09:55 am:

James,

Yes, I see that and your photo is plenty good. The fading on B5967's inside firewall photos at the top of this thread confirms that a wood coil box had not been on that firewall since a swap-out* many years before. *Thank you R.V.

Last night, I sort of answered my own question when I found John Regan's excellent discussion on the hole spacing on wood firewalls.

http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/118802/130096.html

I don't know how to paste the link correctly.

I normally carry extra coils because I drive 312,XXX a lot but what I discovered is the following: (Probably everyone but me knows it)

If you are running an original early wood coil box with early coils in an original firewall, or one drilled like an original, there is a quick solution to an individual coil, switch or other box failure if the early part is not handy.

Any Ford metal coil box that mounts through a wood firewall car from 1913 through about 1917 (?), with regular coils, should button up in 15 minutes. If I am not stating it correctly, John Regan please correct me. The ceramics may be too short after 1917. I don't know.

This is an original 1913-14 coil box I put in 312,XXX and was taken some time back to show the flat edged coil box bolts used in 1913-1914. The switch is an accessory KW lock for that coil box. The speedometer is the thin Stewart 100 used in the 1913's. The clock is a New Haven that keeps great time and how it does it with all that vibration is some sort of miracle known only to the clock makers!





The "1913" Fords beginning with #157,425 the B's and through car #348,735 are an interesting year. Mixed in the last 50,000 cars with 1913 serial numbers are the early 1914's. Who knows how many?

Car 312,XXX has a "1913" serial number and by Acc. 833, Photo 75, should have a 1913 "style" windshield and striped wheels. Thank you Hap on that one seven years ago. The wheels probably are striped but I will have to sand off the coat of light tan paint to confirm that. It did not come to me with the 1913 windshield and I can certainly understand why. Flipping that down on the run could test your glass and fingers! Sort of like the '34 doors.

299,XXX is a beautiful original and folks should look at your thread on the coil box and photos. Like I said in the beginning of this thread about B5967, "The only thing wrong with 299,XXX is that it is not in my shop! <grin> Great car and thanks for sharing it with us James.

Ken in Texas

Ken

(Message edited by drkbp on February 07, 2015)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Larry Smith on Saturday, February 07, 2015 - 09:56 am:

I have two '13s, and neither had an authentic wood box when I acquired them.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By James J. Lyons III - West Virginia on Saturday, February 07, 2015 - 11:06 am:

Thanks for the accolades Ken. :-)
Larry.. I wondered where you've been!?!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By R.V. Anderson on Saturday, February 07, 2015 - 11:22 am:

Ken, the biggest problem with the early coils is that they were all different. Each type is unique and this must be accounted for in setting them up and in their adjustments. Probably very few owners in, say, 1913 (all of whom had come of age in the horse and buggy era, which was still going on) had any more to go on than that little label inside the coil box lid. Coil points were expensive and each type adjusted differently from the others. For example, the 09-10 Kingston unit, the T-4215, is adjusted to increase its amp draw by turning down the adjusting screw. The later '11 and '12 units, T-4232 and T-4238, were adjusted in the opposite manner: to increase the draw, the adjusting screws are turned OUT.

So I can imagine that when Ford came out with an almost totally new, standardized setup, most owners were happy to ante up the 10 bucks and swap them out. But no doubt there were others who, having finally got the hang of their particular coil, weren't going to go through that learning curve all over again. That and stubbornness (and maybe the 10 bucks) probably accounts for the relatively large number (but small percentage) of wood box coils that have survived.

The early coils weren't defective or poorly designed; they just required special knowledge. They can and do run very well even today. Just for curiosity's sake, out at Chickasha, I once ran a set of 1911 Kingstons, T-4232, on a Strobo Spark, and all four showed exactly the same performance as an equally well set up Ford/KW unit.

A 1913 Ford mechanic had to learn (or should have learned) the idiosyncrasies of 8 different styles of coils, all of which were used on the T from 1909-13. In addition, there were still the pre-Ts and THEIR individual coils still on the road. I can just imagine the relief among these guys when Ford standardized in late '13. Now they had only one type to deal with, and could deal with it well because of that fact. This in turn meant that cars with the new setup ran better because they could get better and more knowledgeable service. Dealers were happy and pushed the swap out because it meant they would have to stock only one type of coil points.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By James J. Lyons III - West Virginia on Saturday, February 07, 2015 - 02:59 pm:

Great information R.V. The detail that I'm sure most folks would like to know ( myself included) is when was the last wood box installed? What's the highest engine number we know of that we can confirm (within reason) that came with a wood box installed from the factory?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By R.V. Anderson on Saturday, February 07, 2015 - 04:30 pm:

I doubt it's possible to know exactly because of so many cars being assembled at the branches. The best evidence indicates late spring-early summer of '13. I know that if I were judging, I would not deduct for a car having a metal box after late April. I'd bet that a car could have come with either type box for at least a 6 week period around that time. Others' opinions may differ.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Burger in Spokane on Saturday, February 07, 2015 - 09:50 pm:

My opinion would be that this old dog should be pressed back into rural
route mail delivery and leave the judging for the snooty, pompous crew. :-)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ken Parker on Wednesday, February 18, 2015 - 09:08 am:

Joe,

Did the car have a B tank on it? Even if it is not there, there will be extra holes to mount the straps for a Prest-O-Lite. Mine didn't come from the factory with a B tank.

Ken in Texas


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John F. Regan on Wednesday, February 18, 2015 - 09:34 am:

Great looking car. The upholstery looks like it could be original but I suppose a 1950 restoration could look very old by now. I am a big fan now of leaving cars unrestored when you can do that and only fixing what needs fixed or perhaps returning some parts on the thing to the correct year when there is an obvious change and the right part comes along. They aren't making any more unrestored cars.

I have to tell you in all honesty that I regret having restored my 1911 touring car. The restoration job was well done but it was a neat car before restoration. I was new to the hobby and wanted a shiny brass car. I find original cars to be way more fascinating and they are a valid history lesson. Too many details are lost during restoration. I am getting older but too late smarter...


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ron Patterson-Nicholasville, Kentucky on Wednesday, February 18, 2015 - 11:24 am:

In 2010 Forum link where Richard Gould and I were discussing reproduction wood coil boxes I could only find three different vendors and Randall was was not one of them. The coilbox offered by Ludwig Gocek was the only one being made correctly with respect to mounting holes and through firewall timer, spark plug, magneto and battery terminals spacing, lid coil hold down strip and could be obtained for original coils or accommodate the later Williams (KW) design coil. That last requirement mandated a greater outside dimension of the coilbox (front to back). There were many of the Gocek coiboxes sold. About that same time the fellow making coilboxes for Ludwig passed away and to date he has never found another that met his standards.
Subsequently, several others started making the reproduction wood coilboxes and as John Regan stated quality and fit vary significantly.
Like so many other reproduction Model T parts one had to be careful before purchasing.
I believe the observation made by Joe Stearns about 1913 era Model T's and particularly ignition coils and coilboxes is absolutely true.
Ron the Coilman


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jerry VanOoteghem - SE Michigan on Wednesday, February 18, 2015 - 11:31 am:

John,

Keeping them unrestored is also a great choice for younger collectors who may not currently have the financial resources to do a full restoration. The growing acceptance of such cars, (meaning one doesn't have to be any more embarrassed to be seen in one, versus just being seen in a Model T, period ;>), is a great thing for the hobby, and as you state, for maintaining a historic "document".


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By R.V. Anderson on Wednesday, February 18, 2015 - 01:19 pm:

Just to clarify: I make exact reproductions of all the wood coilboxes and their coils originally used on the T and pre-T automobiles: Heinze, Splitdorf, Kingston, Jacobson-Brandow, and K-W. I do not make any modified versions of any of these that accept the later Ford/KW coils.

My boxes all duplicate the original tooth set and design, and all original interior and exterior detail (one would be really shocked at the amount of detail involved to create exact duplicates of these parts!!) is meticulously crafted to mirror the originals in every way.

Here are a few samples, L to R: 1913 K-W, 1911 J-B, '06 Splitdorf (two cylinder). Second photo shows the underside of the KW with bottom removed.



The tape tags in the boxes and lids are to ID them so the fitted lids and boxes stay together.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By R.V. Anderson on Wednesday, February 18, 2015 - 01:20 pm:

Tooth set detail:


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