Listen to this. Hear that noise?

Topics Last Day Last Week Tree View    Getting Started Formatting Troubleshooting Program Credits    New Messages Keyword Search Contact Moderators Edit Profile Administration
Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2015: Listen to this. Hear that noise?
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Jelf, Parkerfield KS on Monday, February 09, 2015 - 05:07 pm:

I thought I'd take the roadster to town for shopping this afternoon. But I noticed a noise that made me think better of it. When the car is sitting still or driving on level ground, or going downhill, it sounds OK to me. But when it's climbing and I give it the gas, I don't care for the sound it makes. Listen for it at 1:22, 1:30, 1:39, 1:50, and 2:03. What do you think?

http://youtu.be/QeJ2DqG1nYE


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dave Wells on Monday, February 09, 2015 - 05:20 pm:

Exhaust manifold leak? Pack nut backing off?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Jelf, Parkerfield KS on Monday, February 09, 2015 - 05:24 pm:

Probably not the manifold, but I hadn't thought of the nut. I'll check it out.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mark Strange - Hillsboro, MO on Monday, February 09, 2015 - 05:25 pm:

I hear something, like a chugging or maybe a rattling sound, do you feel anything different when it is making the sound, like does the car pull differently, or do you feel a vibration that is only there when the noise is present?

Does the sound go away if you retard the spark a bit?

If the car doesn't pull any differently and the noise is more like a rattle, maybe go over the entire car, checking for loose fasteners.

Keep us posted on what you find! :-)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John Semprez-Templeton, CA on Monday, February 09, 2015 - 07:24 pm:

2:03 sounds like the neighbors dog!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Tomaso - Milton,WA on Monday, February 09, 2015 - 07:36 pm:

Do you always take up the whole road when you're out cruising, Steve ?

Might be something to do with your hand crank - front pulley - ratchet combination ?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dennis Fleming on Monday, February 09, 2015 - 07:39 pm:

I had a similar sound years ago and it drove me crazy until I found out it was a compression leak around one of the head bolt. It sounded like a chirping sound to me on a pull uphill and especially after the car had warmed up. Just a thought


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By tim moore, "Island City" MI on Monday, February 09, 2015 - 08:06 pm:

I would remove the fan belt and drive it again.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Craig Anderson, central Wisconsin on Monday, February 09, 2015 - 08:44 pm:

Do you mean an intermittent "clatter"?
I think I'm with Steve Tomaso with this one....... ?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Jelf, Parkerfield KS on Monday, February 09, 2015 - 09:02 pm:

No, it's nothing to do with the hand crank or ratchet. A good spring keeps the ratchet well clear of the pulley. This is a clunking sound accelerating uphill. My first suspicion was an internal engine problem. Clayton Paddison suggested a loose main bearing, especially a middle one, and I suspect he may be right. An experienced T mechanic is coming Wednesday morning to take a look, and we'll find out for sure.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Harold Schwendeman - Sumner,WA on Monday, February 09, 2015 - 09:04 pm:

Altho' it's intermitent(sp?), it sounds more like a mechanical noise rather than compression. And it sounds like crankshaft speed. I had a similar noise once that soon became severe enough that it was easier to "diagnose" and it was the pin through the crankshaft pulley that had come loose enough to start hitting the little cup shaped nose of the pan.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Harold Schwendeman - Sumner,WA on Monday, February 09, 2015 - 09:06 pm:

Altho' it's intermitent(sp?), it sounds more like a mechanical noise rather than compression. And it sounds like crankshaft speed. I had a similar noise once that soon became severe enough that it was easier to "diagnose" and it was the pin through the crankshaft pulley that had come loose enough to start hitting the little cup shaped nose of the pan.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Harold Schwendeman - Sumner,WA on Monday, February 09, 2015 - 09:10 pm:

Dang! Did it again! Double post! The phone rang during my typing/posting and got me all screwed up! Yeah, I'm one of these old guys that always answers the phone when it rings. Seems to me like most people don't answer the phone anymore except dummies like me!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mark Chaffin on Monday, February 09, 2015 - 09:28 pm:

Sounds like an exhaust leak. Check the rear of the exhaust manifold and then the nut and work your way back to the muffler.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Norman T. Kling on Monday, February 09, 2015 - 09:30 pm:

Sounded pretty good to me. I didn't see anything that even looked like a "hill". One thing which sometimes makes a noise when pulling, especially if the engine is lugging slightly, is spark plug leaking. That is the explosion leaking around the spark plug. That could be your problem. If you have an oil burner, it would also pump a little oil into the well around the plug.
Norm


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Norman T. Kling on Monday, February 09, 2015 - 09:34 pm:

I listened again, and sounds a little like an exhaust leak. Could be around one of the exhaust ports or as I mentioned above around one of the spark plugs. Since you use Champion X plugs you also have the area where the porcelin and metal come together with the extra nut and gasket to also possibly cause a leak. I don't think you have anything to worry about, mostly a nusance.
Norm


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bill Harper - Keene, NH on Tuesday, February 10, 2015 - 12:25 am:

Possible play between the driveshaft tube's ball and the ball cap (forth main) can sometimes produce a knocking sort of noise. That is what the shim if for that Lang's sells. My two cents worth.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jim Thode Chehalis Washington on Tuesday, February 10, 2015 - 12:44 am:

In the first part of the video it looks like the timing is advanced too far and when the timing is too advanced the engine will hammer.

I'd try it with less advance at lowers speeds and see if it makes any difference.



Jim


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Craig Anderson, central Wisconsin on Tuesday, February 10, 2015 - 12:45 am:

Now that Bill Harper mentioned it I had that problem with my '27 Tudor.
That's something that can be checked on the fly by removing a floorboard and taking along a passenger who could scope it out when it occurs.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bob Benedict on Tuesday, February 10, 2015 - 06:38 am:

Jim, Is this chart assuming that the retard lever when set at top position has the firing at about 15Deg ATDC? Bob


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Jelf, Parkerfield KS on Tuesday, February 10, 2015 - 09:19 am:

Here's the chart with paper removed.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Charlie B actually in Toms River N.J. on Tuesday, February 10, 2015 - 09:23 am:

All I can make out sounds like exhaust. No clear banging. What's up with the spark lever? Seen you do this in another video. Not right. Don't you hear any difference with the lever in a more "normal" position? Come to think of it that high pitched noise/ rattle could be spark knock. I pretty much do what the chart shows: advance at speed & retard at lower speeds. You can set it & leave it but you're going to hear "stuff".


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jerry VanOoteghem - SE Michigan on Tuesday, February 10, 2015 - 10:41 am:

Ya, that ain't good. I had that same noise in my speedster. The front main bearing was toast. It would go downhill 50 mph sweet as silk, but when you went uphill it clattered like crazy. I had an internal oil line clogged with one tooth that had broken out of a fiber timing gear years before. Finally took its toll. What are the chances?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Adam Doleshal on Tuesday, February 10, 2015 - 12:21 pm:

It is real hard to tell much from a recording, but I strongly suspect it is either over advanced or has a loose rod or main bearing.

Pull a spark plug and with the coils on bat and the spark lever fully retarded; watch your valves, piston position, & spark to see if it is timed correctly.

Timing has to be done visually to verify it is correct. The "gages" that go from the bolt head to timer rod that the vendors all sell are inaccurate if the timer you are using is not perfectly to Ford tolerances.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jim Thode Chehalis Washington on Tuesday, February 10, 2015 - 01:04 pm:

Bob B.
Yes I would assume that the chart would be for the 15Deg ATDC timing. The 15 ATDC was the normal setting for most T's. Of course as the chart indicates, the exact position will vary slightly from car to car.
Jim


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By john kuehn on Tuesday, February 10, 2015 - 02:00 pm:

At the beginning of the video it looks like to me you've got the spark lever almost fully advanced.
Did you try it at a about half way? I've always believed you're pushing the engine too hard if you go past 3/4 open on.
Good luck.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By R. S. Cruickshank on Tuesday, February 10, 2015 - 02:40 pm:

Steve, it sounds pretty good to me. Of course I mentioned in another thread that I use the sounds/rattles in place of a speedometer. I know when I am at 25, 30, 35 pretty much based on the different sounds from my 1913 hack. You know what they say, "if it aint broke, don't fix it". What worries me more is when I don't hear anything; then I know I have a problem!!!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Harold Schwendeman - Sumner,WA on Tuesday, February 10, 2015 - 02:48 pm:

Steve - As previously mentioned, it is hard to identify a specific noise from a video, but it sure sounds "mechanical" to me, as opposed to any kind of "spark knock". The knock seems much too regular,...that is to say "intermittent" but occurring at crankshaft or flywheel speed.

This is going to sound "off topic", but it is meant to address this often discussed but misunderstood spark advance thing:

There might be another way to understand "spark advance", what it is for, how it works, and why.

Consider this. In a typical American car of the '40's and '50's or so, the conventional way that the spark advance situation worked during that period might be analyzed and compared to the chart that Jim Thode posted above in this thread.

Detroit engineers developed what might be called an automatic spark advance that takes the place of the manually controlled Model T (and Model A) spark advance lever. This "automatic" system was actually two very simple systems that worked together to take care of ignition timing completely independently from the driver. One of these two systems consisted of a vacuum diaphram that utilized intake manifold vacuum, and the second system consisted of mechanical weights built into the distributor and attached to the distributor shaft that would vary the ignition timing according to centrifugal force which would vary according to the rpm of the distributor shaft.

Basically, the initial spark advance (ignition timing) would occur as soon as the engine was started and intake manifold vacuum was present and actuated the vacuum advance diaphram. As engine rpm increased, the weights in the distributor would add additional spark advance as needed. The other factor that would vary the spark advance as needed was the very dependable decrease in intake manifold vacuum whenever the throttle (accelerator pedal) was further depressed as in accelerating or climbing a hill. In other words, anything that demanded more power. The more open that butterfly was in the carburetor, the less intake manifold vacuum.

Now,....stay with me here,.....it is quite easy to learn how these two systems work together to take care of ignition timing automatically. Admittedly, the way the two systems (vacuum diaphram & centrifugal force which actuated distributor shaft weights) would work together was somewhat of a "varying compromise" and not exactly "perfect" ignition timing for all the varying load conditions that would occur in normal driving, but, it worked,.....and it actually worked pretty good.

And my whole point of all this is to say that if a person could learn how and why this "automatic" ignition timing system of the '50's worked, and then compare it to the Model T spark advance chart that Jim Thode posted above in this thread, you would have a pretty good idea how (and why) to utilize the Model T spark advance lever to best advantage.

One of the reasons for this "epistle" I just wrote is to try to justify my statement here that simply fully retarding the spark to start a Model T engine, and then immediately pulling the spark advance lever all the way down and just leaving it there, is "NOT" good or proper use of the spark advance lever.

All of this just barely applies to this thread, however, this spark advance lever thing comes up so often on this forum, and so many new Model T folks really don't understand the spark advance thing at all! Actually, there are also a lot of us "old timers" that don't use the spark advance lever properly either, some that just simply never have fully understood it, and others (like me) that are just too lazy to make the continual ignition timing adjustments that normal Model T driving demands.

O.K. Enough! Hope this might be of some help to somebody,....for what it's worth,.......harold


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mark Strange - Hillsboro, MO on Tuesday, February 10, 2015 - 03:16 pm:

Just a reminder, when operating on battery, spark advance varies in proportion to the movement of the spark lever, but when running on magneto, spark advance changes in rather large "steps" as the lever is moved - see this article on the Fun Projects website, especially the summary and figure 8:

http://www.funprojects.com/pdf/Model%20T%20Ignition%20System-Final%20Artiticle.p df


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Seth from NC on Wednesday, February 11, 2015 - 06:37 am:

Steve, let us know what the mechanic says today.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Jelf, Parkerfield KS on Wednesday, February 11, 2015 - 02:17 pm:

OK, here's an update. We braved the cold north wind and took several test drives with me as a passenger this time. The bottom line is that the banging noise that had me worried was nothing inside the engine, but my own bad driving. There were other issues to work out, but my misuse of the spark lever, combined with fuel starvation, led to the sound that had me worried. There was a variety of other problems, some of which we quickly fixed, and a couple that remain for me to work out. The simplest thing to do was putting more fuel in the tank. I dumped in a full five-gallon can. That raised the pressure enough to cure the hard starting. Cardboard shims in the coil box to keep the coils in contact also improved things. There are two more things I still need to do. One is carburetor improvement. I'm going to switch to another one. If that doesn't make any difference in fuel delivery I'll get out the carburetor book to be sure I don't forget anything, and do a complete carb overhaul. The other item on the agenda is the timer. The one that's on the car isn't terrible, but I have at least one that looks better so I'll try that too. The carburetor and the timer are minor annoyances. I'm delighted that there don't appear to be any major problems. It's wonderful to have an experienced hand help out, and to have this forum that brought us together.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bill Harper - Keene, NH on Wednesday, February 11, 2015 - 02:27 pm:

Hi Steve,

SO pleased to read that you have minor issues. Having another pair of eyes and ears along is helpful, as is being a passenger. Bill


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By john kuehn on Wednesday, February 11, 2015 - 03:04 pm:

Steve its just a T being a T! After I get down to about a gallon of gas in my Coupe I start noticing performance issues. Not much but its there. An almost full tank and it runs just fine. I have to remember its gravity fed and doesn't use a fuel pump. My old Ford tractor is the same way.

Good luck and glad its not any real big issues.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Henry Petrino in Modesto, CA on Wednesday, February 11, 2015 - 03:04 pm:

Very glad things worked out for you Steve!

About a year and a half ago I got new first time hearing aids. The first time I drove the TT while wearing them I figured I needed a complete drive train overhaul, from the fan to the rear wheel bearings. I don't wear them anymore when driving the TT. :-)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mark Strange - Hillsboro, MO on Wednesday, February 11, 2015 - 03:06 pm:

Glad to hear there are no major issues! At the risk of jinxing you, it sounds like the few minor issues will be fixed in plenty of time for spring. :-)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jack Daron - Brownsburg IN on Wednesday, February 11, 2015 - 03:17 pm:

I am glad you posted your findings.When I first listened to your tape I thought I could detect a timer skipping,but didn't post that. I have been wondering if I was even close.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jerry VanOoteghem - SE Michigan on Wednesday, February 11, 2015 - 03:25 pm:

Great news. Glad to hear it


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dick Fischer - Arroyo Grande, CA on Wednesday, February 11, 2015 - 04:23 pm:

Yes, like the others I'm glad to hear that it's nothing serious.

In the comments on detonation due to too much spark advance, I'd like to add one more dimension. Have you ever heard of the octane of gasoline rated as 80-87, or 100-130 ? Those are aviation ratings, but the essence of the rating is that a gasoline might exhibit 80 octane detonation resistance when running lean and 87 resistance when running rich. That's why airplane engines are typically run at full rich for takeoff and climb, and then leaned for cruise.

Steve, if your carb is running critically lean, I'm suggesting that your detonation resistance may be somewhat reduced. A spark advance position that worked just fine when the carb was rich may well now cause detonation under the same load/RPM conditions.

Dick


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Jelf, Parkerfield KS on Wednesday, February 11, 2015 - 04:52 pm:

It gets better. I changed to a different carburetor. With a few pulls on choke, the car started on the first or second pull with the ignition on, both on BAT and MAG, except for the three times I got free starts when I flipped the switch. If it starts that easily when it's cool, I'll be a happy geezer indeed. Next will be smoothing the inside of the timer and making sure the brush rides flat.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mike Bender Tulsa Oklahoma on Wednesday, February 11, 2015 - 05:47 pm:

Remember 95% of all electrical problems are fuel related. 95% of all fuel problems are electrical related.

If your that happy now, fix the timer,it maybe ok since we change out the brush holder but smoothing up the inside won't hurt.

Just watch out for the neighbor's dog, I did notice that it put the fence between me and him when I left.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Jelf, Parkerfield KS on Wednesday, February 11, 2015 - 10:17 pm:

Some of their previous dogs over there were pretty aggressive until I fired off a starter's pistol. That cooled them down considerably. Maybe I need to give this new bunch a taste of powder to get them out of the way. :-)


Posting is currently disabled in this topic. Contact your discussion moderator for more information.
Topics Last Day Last Week Tree View    Getting Started Formatting Troubleshooting Program Credits    New Messages Keyword Search Contact Moderators Edit Profile Administration