Searching for Origination History Help

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Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2015: Searching for Origination History Help
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Marvin Konrad on Thursday, February 12, 2015 - 02:18 pm:

Looking to find out what I can about this '25 Engine #11628392. Does anyone have production info? Thanks!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Jelf, Parkerfield KS on Thursday, February 12, 2015 - 02:25 pm:

Friday, April 24, 1925, at 7:32 PM. Just kidding about the time, but that's the date.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Marvin Konrad on Thursday, February 12, 2015 - 02:32 pm:

Thanks, Steve! I knew someone had to have it at their fingertips. Now, if that time was correct, would you be able to ID the fella too???


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dennis Seth - Ohio on Thursday, February 12, 2015 - 04:22 pm:

That's great Steve, I got a big chuckle out of the time comment.

Perhaps it could read: Friday, April 24, 1925, at 7:32 PM, assembled by Fred Smith just after his dinner break. He had a pickle sandwich and a bottle of milk.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Blancard on Thursday, February 12, 2015 - 05:12 pm:

Hey Steve, could you tell me the birthday of mine? And did the workman wear BVDs or Jockey shorts?

number


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dave Barker - Dayton, OH on Thursday, February 12, 2015 - 05:19 pm:

Thursday, March 20, 1924. It was #3,890 of a total of 7,806 engines assembled and stamped that day.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hap Tucker in Sumter SC on Thursday, February 12, 2015 - 06:17 pm:

OT: For some reason I feel like Iím a voice of one crying out in the wilderness and no one wants to hear this information. But, I believe the evidence supports that the date listed in the USA engine logs from Jan 1915 to 1927 is usually not the date the car was assembled although in some cases it was. And it is not necessarily the date the engine was assembled if the engine was assembled outside of Highland Park and later River Rouge plants. (And there was a transition period when Highland Park sent engine numbers to the River Rouge as they began engine production and later River Rouge sent engine numbers to Highland Park as HP began ending engine production.)

1. Please remember that the date listed in Bruce McCalley's (R.I.P.) serial number listing which is the normal reference we use for USA produced engines is the date the engine number was entered in the USA Ford Motor Company daily log books of the engine assembly department starting in Jan 1915 and continuing to 1941 (ref page 501 and 537 of Bruce's book ďModel T FordĒ).

2. The date entered in the engine production log is not necessarily the date the engine was assembled. On that same page 501 Bruce states, "During the Model T era, great numbers of engines were assembled at the Ford branches. Apparently Ford printed engine number job sheets which were numbered in advance, and these were attached to engines being assembled. These job sheet numbers were stamped into the cylinder block when the job was completed. [Hap's comment: only complete engine & transmission assemblies received a serial number -- not a short block. Although replacement blocks would be stamped with the serial number of the engine block they replaced if the swap out was done by an authorized Ford Agency (dealer) and they followed Fordís guidance. Now back to Bruce.] Groups of these engine number records (not engines) were also shipped out, and these numbers were then stamped on the engines when they were completed at some Ford branch. Some of these record number shipments were noted, but most were not. As a result, while the Highland Park (or, later, the Rouge Plant) assembled engines on the days indicated, other blocks of engines might have been assembled days or weeks later.

3. It is possible that an engine that was assembled in Detroit might also have been installed in a car on the same day the engine was assembled. Especially if the engine was assembled early in the day and the car later in the day and both at the same location i.e. Highland Park. But that would probably only happen at the main plant location in Detroit when engines were not being shipped or not being shipped very far. In most cases when engines were shipped the transit time for use at the other location would be a few days minimum. I believe this is illustrated by the note at:
http://www.mtfca.com/encyclo/doc25.htm which states:

DEC 12, 1925 Acc. 94. Walter Fishleigh files, Ford Archives
"Motor number was first placed on frame side member R.H. on Dec. 12, 1925. Motor No. 12,861,044. Information obtained from Mr. Burns, Final Assy., Highland Park."

But if we look up the engine serial number 12,861,044 we note that it is listed along in the group from 12,855,160 to 12,863,164 under the date of Dec 5, 1925. In this case the engine was assembled at the River Rouge engine assembly plant (ref 532 shares that production completely shifted from Highland Park to the River Rouge with the last recorded/noted engine numbers (62 numbers -- not engines) sent on Feb 13, 1925 to Highland Park to be stamped on engines assembled there. So in this case it took from Dec 5, 1925 to Dec 12, 1925 for the engine to travel from the assembly plant at the River Rouge to the assembly plant at Highland Park to be dropped into a chassis. Thatís 7 or 8 days depending on how you count but clearly not the same day of the engine log entry. And note that engine did not have to leave the city.

Note engines could be sent from the River Rouge to the Highland Park plant quicker. On page 536 they note that engine #14,999,999; 15,000,000; and 15,000,001 were held out of production on May 25, 1927 for the next day. And other sources show the 15,000,000 Model T with that engine rolled off the assembly line on May 26, 1927. But I suspect those three engines did not take the normal trip from the River Rouge to the Highland Park plant.

4. And what were the odds that your T was assembled at Highland Park? That varies by year. In 1925 Ford Motor Company USA recorded a total of 1,775,245 Model Ts (includes chassis, cars, and trucks) with 111,418 assembled at the Highland Park plant (ref page 468). That is approximately 6.28 percent of the USA Model T production were assembled at the River Rouge. That year the only plant that assembled more Ts than Highland Park was the Kearney plant with 137,321 assembled.

5. And in some cases engine were stored and installed in cars later. For example the note at:
http://mtfca.com/encyclo/doc24.htm the Mar 18, 1924 entry reads:

"We hear stories that some salesmen are telling their customers to be sure and look at the motor number of any car when they buy in order to be sure they get a late motor number. These particular salesmen are just making a lot of trouble for themselves because at the new plant we have hundreds of motors that have been standing there for thirty days or more and will be going into the cars in the course of production. This means that all dealers will receive motor numbers from the Burnham plant that will be considerably lower in number than those motors received from the Chicago plant so just stop your salesmen making any remarks at all about motor numbers because in so doing they are going to make a lot of trouble for you when we start shipping from the new plant."
A.W.L. Gilpin
Branch Manager
P.S. In correspondence the old Ford plant in Chicago is referred to as the Chicago plant and the new plant is referred to as the Burnham plant because it is near the Burnham railroad yards.

Finally is some cases the engine records record the actual time an engine was assembled -- usually the milestone engines such as:

1,000,000 on Dec 10, 1915 at 1:53 1/2 P,M. ref page 512

5,000,000 on May 28, 1921 at 7:05 A.M. "to Edsel Ford"

10,000,000 on Jun 4, 1924 at 7:47 A.M.

Respectfully submitted,

Hap l9l5 cut off


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Marvin Konrad on Thursday, February 12, 2015 - 07:24 pm:

-Hi, Hap!-
And I figured it would be you answering my simple production question, but Steve was able to beat you to it!! I have now 'copied out' your info so to reference for 'all posterity' (unless the computer should 'crash', of course. In which case, it will be emblazoned somewhere to then ask the question again.) Thank you!!!!

(Has anyone noticed how close in spelling 'posterity' is to 'posterior'???)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Blancard on Thursday, February 12, 2015 - 07:34 pm:

Thanks Dave. Hap - your comments are noted and much appreciated.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Jelf, Parkerfield KS on Thursday, February 12, 2015 - 08:51 pm:

The actual assembly dates varied not only in the US, but there are notations in the records about blocks of numbers being sent to foreign assembly plants, like Manchester, to be used on engines made there. I can pretend that the engine in my roadster really was assembled on June 17, 1915, but it could have been made in Kansas City, Oklahoma City, Houston, or any of a number of other assembly plants within a week or two of that date.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dave Barker - Dayton, OH on Thursday, February 12, 2015 - 08:58 pm:

Steve - No problem. Anytime I can help.

Hap - Understood. I guess I should've noted that Steve's engine number was one of 7,806 engines that were recorded as having been stamped on 3/20/24, according to Bruce's book and engine production records. No guarantees that it was, in fact, assembled on that day.

For me, having a 1919 car, and lacking any other production records, the engine number works fine for my car's birthdate.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Joseph Geisler on Thursday, February 12, 2015 - 09:48 pm:

Hap,
I DO HOPE YOU WRITE the NEXT book covering the model T.
Keep up the brilliant work and PLEASE!! do NOT let go to your head like it does to so-o-o MANY!
Joe in Mo.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ken Parker on Thursday, February 12, 2015 - 11:36 pm:

Steve,

Your 1915 probably has the transmission stub shaft dated. It is the only complete date, month-day-year, on the entire automobile. This was inside 312,XXX:



The engine number lists for 1913 suggest an assembly on July 17, 1913. Six days apart and built not earlier than July 11, 1913.

Ken in Texas


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David Dewey, N. California on Thursday, February 12, 2015 - 11:51 pm:

Based on production numbers for the day, I figure my engine was stamped about 11 am on Dec 10, 1915. (about 2 hours before #1,000,000)
:-)
It helps to have an engine number very close to a momentous engine number!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Wayne Sheldon, Grass Valley, CA on Friday, February 13, 2015 - 05:49 am:

As our Ts get closer to their "hundredth birthday", and we see more and more one after another reaching that milestone, It seems to be becoming more important to "know what that "birthday" is. My coupe has what may be its original engine, the serial number indicates mid April 1924. Communication with David S (the coupe expert) a couple years ago indicates that the body details would confirm that the car was built at about that time. So, in nine more years, two months, and one week, I may mark its century.
However, for my '15 runabout? I don't have that problem. I don't have the original engine or number. The body DOES have its original manufacturer's tag which has a code that indicates the body to have been built in February or maybe March of 1915. That is enough to claim it as an original '15. But I have to allow a couple months, and maybe a bit more before the car was actually assembled. The best guess that can be made is April at the earliest, probably before the end of June, 1915 at the latest. That is early enough to be a true '15, and have brass trimmed lamps. Maybe in a few months I will twist the cap off an A&W root beer for it. I just wish it was even half together.

I also have an engine block that was numbered on December 13, three days after David D's.
Drive carefully, and enjoy, W2


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Fred Dimock, Newfields NH, USA on Friday, February 13, 2015 - 12:53 pm:

You might get a clue from the casting date of the block - but it also could add to the confusion.


My 1919 hack is simple -
the engine block was cast on July 28, 1919 and became motor number 3275690 on July 30th. (Henry Fordís Birthday)
It barely had time to cool before being machined!

The vehicle was most likely delivered as a bare chassis and the body put on in either Mifflinburg PA or a dealer in Mass.

I have the first registration (Mass) which is dated Sept 9, 1919.
So the time between the motor being numbered and the vehicle being on the road was the month of August and a few days.

I am still hoping to find out where the body was put on the chassis.


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