**Front Spindle Assembly**

Topics Last Day Last Week Tree View    Getting Started Formatting Troubleshooting Program Credits    New Messages Keyword Search Contact Moderators Edit Profile Administration
Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2015: **Front Spindle Assembly**
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Martin Vowell, Sylmar, CA on Friday, February 13, 2015 - 11:26 pm:

Due to the size of front axle assembly, I've broken them up into 3 sub-assemblies; Front Spindle (the ones I've posted), Tie Rod/Drag Link Assembly and Spring/Wishbone Assembly which I have yet to post. I thought I'd get the spindle assemblies straightened out before I post the other two (for 1915-1918 and 1919-1927). The earlier 1909-1911 and 1912-1913 versions I'm not quite sure what those look like, so until I get more information (and some good pictures) we'll just start with the ones I know about. But like always, if there is something that I have missed or got wrong, please let me know, thanks.
If anybody knows the difference between the front axle of the 14-18 cars is I'd like to see an example. I know it's called the "flat axle" but that's about it.





You'll notice these have Lang's part numbers, I have yet to get the books and or disc's that'll give me Ford factory and dealers part numbers. When I do get those I'll immediately go back through every drawing I've done and make the change to those numbers.
I think that since Factory numbers are the real part numbers, we might as well get used to using them. That being said, the vendors are using mostly the dealers part numbers, so my drawings will reflect both systems...the factory number on top with the dealers or vendors number under it.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Donnie Brown North Central Arkansas on Saturday, February 14, 2015 - 01:49 pm:

Martin: Nice work. You probably should show both the spindles for the 11-25 and 26-27 models. The 26-27 spindle is higher on the spindle body (about 1 inch) the 11-25 is close to center and the 26-27 is closer to the top. Some form of side by side comparision would help to illustrate that difference, for the ones who are not sure of the difference. There is also a difference in the front axles. There is a "sway" or "droop" in the center of some of the 27 axles. I have no good pics of them or any numbers for them... Like I said nice work, and I always look forward to your next work....


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Allan Bennett - Australia on Saturday, February 14, 2015 - 05:55 pm:

Martin, all the spindle arms I have seen are bent inwards from the spindle. The later type you show has the bends upward so the new bottom front radius rod is cleared, but it also, does not show the bend to the centre of the car. This bend means that with the later cars there is a left and right spindle arm, whereas the earlier ones can be used left and right.
The drawing shows the spindle bolt holes the same size as the perch holes in the axle. To keep these in proportion, the spindle bolts need to be drawn thinner and their holes in the axle made smaller.
You sure do great work for us. Your drawings will be of great assistance to any one working on model Ts.

Hope these suggestions help.

Allan from down under.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ken Kopsky, Lytle TX on Saturday, February 14, 2015 - 06:29 pm:

The spindle body is different too. The early and 26-27 versions don't have the flange lip. The image below shows early to late, left to right but I don't know the dates off-hand other than the 26-27 on the right. The early version also had a shorter bearing surface.



Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Martin Vowell, Sylmar, CA on Saturday, February 14, 2015 - 08:03 pm:

Donnie, I didn't know there was a difference, but I can see it in the picture that Ken posted, mine looks a lot like the one in the middle. With that offset on the spindle that's probably one of the reasons the 26-27's sits a bit lower than the earlier cars (that and tires).
Since there is visual difference, I'm make another drawing for 26-27, thanks.

Allen, yes the spindle arms on my car are bent up and in as well. I drew these also up and in, it's hard to see it because of the angle of this projection. I could exaggerate the bend, but then it might look out of proportion with the rest of the assembly and since this is 2D the only travel I've got is either up/down or left/right. No matter where you put something on the up/down axis, there is no way to show depth (z axis). This is one assembly that would really lend itself to a 3D drawing...I'm working on that.
On my car (a 22 touring) there is a right and left arm. I just assumed that it held true for all years in the span. Do you know which early cars had the non bent inwards arm?
Also I've heard of a spindle where the arm and the body are one piece, but I'm not sure which year that axle assembly is for. Does anybody know or have pictures of it?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Donnie Brown North Central Arkansas on Saturday, February 14, 2015 - 09:48 pm:

Martin. The 26-27 style is the preferred style for the speedster guys to use as it lowers the car about an inch. The question comes up from time to time (usually by a new T person) on how to tell the difference when looking for them. Your drawings will help out. Im not sure but I think all the arms are bent inward. But I could stand corrected on that, as Im not very familiar with the early T parts. . The "straight" ones bend inward but not up so they are useable on either side. The "straight" ones (inward bend only) are used with the radius rod above the axle, and the 2 bend (up and inward) ones are used with the radius rod below the axle. I have also heard about another version of spindles, used on European cars, that has the spindle at the "extreme top" of the spindle body. but you may not be doing the European stuff.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Allan Bennett - Australia on Saturday, February 14, 2015 - 11:16 pm:

Martin, Donnie has put it well. The arms with just the bend inwards go with the radius rod which is above the axle. The change point to the radius rod below the axle was in the late teens.

Allan from down under.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Thomas Jull in Oakland, CA on Saturday, February 14, 2015 - 11:32 pm:

According to "Model T Ford Parts Identification Guide" the two piece spindle was first used in 1911. In 1917 or 1918 through 1925 there is a flattened area behind the wheel bearing. The 1926-27 style has a raised spindle (not centered) which lowered the front end of the car. From the photo it looks like from left to right it is 1911-1917-18, 1917-18 to 1925, 1926-27


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Martin Vowell, Sylmar, CA on Sunday, February 15, 2015 - 02:07 am:

Ok, how's this?







Thomas, ok, does that mean that the title should be 1911-1918? Are you saying that the one piece spindle was 1909-1910? Do you know what it looked like? Or did it look the same as the 1911 just with a one piece spindle and arm?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Martin Vowell, Sylmar, CA on Sunday, February 15, 2015 - 03:51 am:



I've retitled the first drawing to include 1911-1918. If there are differences between the 1911 and the any of the others in that span, please inform me and I'll make the correction, thanks.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dan Hatch on Sunday, February 15, 2015 - 05:59 am:

How about a note about the threads in the lower part of the axle? Dan


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Joseph A. Stearns on Sunday, February 15, 2015 - 06:13 am:

Martin, nice work. I know it is picky but to me the "king pins" seem to be out of scale on their dia.---should be like the bushing ID in the illustrations. Good work and helpful. Thanks for your work. Joe


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ken Kopsky, Lytle TX on Sunday, February 15, 2015 - 07:51 am:

It looks larger because it's closer to you in the view. :-)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Erick Keenan on Sunday, February 15, 2015 - 08:37 am:

Hi Martin, What program are you drawing this with?
Erick , Very nice work. If you are making solid model some item can be turned into detail drawings very easily and may offer you a bit of revenue.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Martin Vowell, Sylmar, CA on Sunday, February 15, 2015 - 09:09 am:

Erick, this is a 2d drawing program, Corel Draw 11. I know most folks don't think that it's a serious drawing package. But if you rework the ini file a wee bit it can bang out to 6 decimal places very accurately.
I'm also doing these in Turbo Cad's 3D program. Not the best, but it's ok for what it is. The one I want makes a downloadable animated PDF, animated in the sense you can either see the assembly assembled or pull it apart as an exploded view...but it's expensive and these will have to do until I can afford something better.

Joseph, somebody earlier said that the shaft of the bolt should be a wee bit smaller than the hole in the axle, it didn't seem right to me, but I haven't had those particular parts disassembled for quite a while and couldn't remember it if was or not. I think it should be the same size as the hole, otherwise it would slop around in the bracket, right? I'll change it back.

Dan, the lower part of the axle is threaded?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ken Kopsky, Lytle TX on Sunday, February 15, 2015 - 09:21 am:


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Larry Smith on Sunday, February 15, 2015 - 10:00 am:

The print that Ken posted above is important too, not because it's the early axle, but because it shows the pilot, or counterbore for the king pin on the lower knuckle, which keeps the spindle bolt from wobbleing around. Many NORS, and repro spindle bolts were not designed with this feature in mind.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dan Hatch on Sunday, February 15, 2015 - 10:24 am:

Martin: Most axles have the threads worn out of them. That is why people do not think there are suppose to be there. The print Ken posted shows how they are suppose to be. The counter bore is important also. That is why the Stevens insert comes with that counter bore. Dan


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Erick Keenan on Sunday, February 15, 2015 - 10:29 am:

Hi Ken where did you get the factory drawing and can you get others? Thank you.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Erick Keenan on Sunday, February 15, 2015 - 10:40 am:

Hi Martin, did you ever try Solidworks or Inventor?
I know they are expensive. I am learning Solidworks by using a student copy and by watching youtube. I have Turbocad, I think it is difficult to use.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dennis Henrichs on Sunday, February 15, 2015 - 01:13 pm:

Hi Martin,

Just a couple points on your 1911-18 drawing: Prior to 1915 the right spindle arm had two holes, one for the tie rod bolt and second one about in the middle for the speedometer bracket. The plain spindle arm you show was substituted during 1915 when Ford quit supplying speedometers. Also the spindle bolt used the screw in oilers as in your drawing until sometime in 1915 when the oiler changed to a "manhole" type--a flat cover that was fastened to an internal spring inside the bolt. The flip top oilers came about 1919. The same changes in the oilers took place on the tie rod bolts also.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Thomas Jull in Oakland, CA on Sunday, February 15, 2015 - 03:36 pm:

Martin - looks like the one piece spindle was used from 1909 into 1911. Also looks like the two piece started to be used in 1911. Not sure what months they were switched or if there was even some overlap of the two. To make things even more confusing, it looks like there was a one piece replacement spindle (part# 2694C) but it had a curved arm not straight like the early one piece spindles.

Also, my understanding is that the arm on the early one piece spindles sloped upwards to the tie rod rather than horizontal as shown in the drawing.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Martin Vowell, Sylmar, CA on Monday, February 16, 2015 - 04:05 am:

Thomas, how's this for a 1909-1911?



I searched the net to find anything on the 1909 front end. The one pic I did see had a really big knuckle on the spindle arm. Not sure of the placement of the speedometer mounting hole nor if this is anywhere near the right size. The picture I saw didn't have one or at least I didn't see one.

Iso drawings give the viewer an "implied depth". All I can really do to show depth, is change the height of things in the background. I tried to show the spindle arm slanting up and a little in, which is what I saw in the picture on the net.
Let me know if I'm close, can always changes things if I'm not.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John Warren on Monday, February 16, 2015 - 10:59 am:

Martin,Your work is appreciated!!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Thomas Jull in Oakland on Monday, February 16, 2015 - 11:20 am:

Martin - The Parts Identification Guide has the speedometer hole being used 1911 until 1915.

Spindles

This photo should help. Note that on the top middle spindle there is a black mark that looks like a hole. It is actually a trademark for Dodge Brothers Machine (D.B. In a circle) who made that spindle.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Thomas Mullin on Monday, February 16, 2015 - 12:09 pm:

Erick,

Most factory drawings are available from the Benson Ford Research Center at The Henry Ford in Dearborn. They have 105mm microfiche for most of them. There are a few, especially Model K drawings, on roll microfilm. They will do searches and send you the drawing for a fee.

If you are ever in Dearborn (Tuesday through Friday) you can stop in and make a copy for yourself for $5.00 per drawing. When you do it yourself, the drawing usually gets printed in multiple 8.5 by 11 inch sheets. I scan them later and paste them together using GIMP (Gnu Image Manipulating Program). Its free and very good.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Martin Vowell, Sylmar, CA on Monday, February 16, 2015 - 09:29 pm:

Woo this is really helpful Thomas, the arm comes out from the center of the body and not from the side as I have drawn it. The two one piece bodies are similar but not the same, one has no flanges and the other has flanges. I'm assuming that the flange body is a later version?
The one machined by the Dodge bothers must be an early one before their fall out with Henry. Did you get this picture from Bruce's book?

So, the speedometer hole in the arm is from 1911-1915? Didn't they have speedometers on the 1909-1910's? How were they attached? Some sort of special clamp on bracket?
Hmmm, I'll make the changes.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dennis Henrichs on Tuesday, February 17, 2015 - 05:58 am:

Martin,

Looking at photo Thomas posted, The lower right one piece spindle is the one made and used for a short time in 1922. It has the slight "S" curve in the spindle arm whereas the 1909 type one piece the arm is straight but angled up from the spindle. I have a couple pair of the 1922 type. Just another variation to draw. :-) You do great work!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Martin Vowell, Sylmar, CA on Tuesday, February 17, 2015 - 07:00 am:

Thanks Dennis, you're right one more to draw and I'll get right on that one whilst you fellows look over these.




Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Martin Vowell, Sylmar, CA on Tuesday, February 17, 2015 - 07:01 am:

Continued...




Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Martin Vowell, Sylmar, CA on Tuesday, February 17, 2015 - 07:02 am:

And the 1926-1927


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Martin Vowell, Sylmar, CA on Tuesday, February 17, 2015 - 07:15 am:

I'm not sure what a "manhole" oiler looks like, so I put a modified flip top on the 1915-1918 drawing. If somebody has a picture of one of those "manhole" oilers, I'd like to see it.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ken Kopsky, Lytle TX on Tuesday, February 17, 2015 - 07:51 am:

Here's a link from a discussion last year.

http://www.mtfca.com/cgi-bin/discus/show.cgi?tpc=411944&post=598498#POST598498


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Martin Vowell, Sylmar, CA on Tuesday, February 17, 2015 - 08:20 am:

Hmmmm.....how about this?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By James Baker on Tuesday, February 17, 2015 - 08:43 am:

What about these spindles Martin?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By James Baker on Tuesday, February 17, 2015 - 08:45 am:


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Martin Vowell, Sylmar, CA on Tuesday, February 17, 2015 - 08:21 pm:

Oh James I didn't forget that one, just took some time to draw it.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By James Baker on Tuesday, February 17, 2015 - 10:54 pm:

You are awesome Martin!!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Frank van Ekeren (Australia) on Tuesday, February 17, 2015 - 10:59 pm:

Flip the steering arm!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By James Baker on Wednesday, February 18, 2015 - 05:47 am:

Who are you talking to Ekeren?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Frank van Ekeren (Australia) on Wednesday, February 18, 2015 - 06:06 am:

If you think I'm implying anything to you Baker, then are mistaken, look at the drawing and you can see the steering arm is upside down, at my end of the world, and I'm sure at yours, to flip is to reverse.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Frank van Ekeren (Australia) on Wednesday, February 18, 2015 - 06:15 am:

And to make it clear, I'm referring to the one piece spindle drawing.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Robb Wolff on Wednesday, February 18, 2015 - 01:35 pm:




Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Jelf, Parkerfield KS on Wednesday, February 18, 2015 - 01:53 pm:

Martin,take another look at your 1911-1915 right spindle arm. I don't see the inward bend.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Frank van Ekeren (Australia) on Wednesday, February 18, 2015 - 03:16 pm:

Nice photo's of early ones Robb, but not the year in question, 1922 spindles.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Martin Vowell, Sylmar, CA on Wednesday, February 18, 2015 - 04:15 pm:

Frank is correct, I thought about it last night and realized what he was saying. Since the arm is coming from the center as is the spindle, bent up and in would be too high. It would have to be bent in and down to place the knuckle in the same position as on the two piece spindles. The pictures show this, but since you're looking at it from an above aspect, it tends to fool the eye.



Steve, hmmm, ok I'll make that adjustment also.
Rob, pretty car, would like to see the rest of it :-) I always thought everybody but me was using oilers, that one picture is showing dope cups (my car has zerk fittings).


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Jelf, Parkerfield KS on Wednesday, February 18, 2015 - 04:24 pm:

Maybe the 1911-1915 picture should also show the left arm to make it clear that they're different.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Jelf, Parkerfield KS on Wednesday, February 18, 2015 - 04:27 pm:

While I'm picking nits, maybe I should mention the manhole oilers on 1915 spindle bolts. :-)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Martin Vowell, Sylmar, CA on Wednesday, February 18, 2015 - 04:52 pm:

Steve, how's this?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Martin Vowell, Sylmar, CA on Wednesday, February 18, 2015 - 07:25 pm:

Steve, the 1911-1915 had the brass twist oiler. I should have directed you to the drawing for 1915-1918 which shows the "manhole cover' oiler.



and



There is no part number on the "manhole" pin because I don't have one for it. Something that I hope to correct when I get McCalley's disc's.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Thomas Jull in Oakland on Wednesday, February 18, 2015 - 11:22 pm:

Martin - Except for the comments from others, the drawings look like they are there. Bet you did not realize that a spindle could be so complicated. I commend you on the great work!

One thing I might change would be the 1922 spindle drawing. My understanding is that it was a replacement part only and was never used on the production line. Because of this, I would show it by itself rather than with the axle. Also, it is found in the 1922 parts book but I am not sure when it was first produced or how long it was produced. I probably would not call it a 1922 but instead just call it a replacement part. Maybe there is somebody out there that has more history on this.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Martin Vowell, Sylmar, CA on Thursday, February 19, 2015 - 03:08 am:

Thomas, James Baker's car is a 22 with those spindles. I don't know (and probably he doesn't either) if they were a replacements or not, but it might just be that some cars were made with those on them all the same.
If it's only a replacement part, was it so hard to get the two piece spindle that they felt they had to offer a one piece spindle to replace it? Not very likely, I'm guessing that they offered this as a replacement in case you broke the one piece that was your car originally, at least it seems more logical and likely.

As to the spindle assembly, actually, I started with 3 and have ended up with 6. And I never thought there 4 different axles either. I'll just bet when I get to the tie rod/drag link assemblies that there is probably more than 6 different types of those too...but we will have see. You know, fun never quits...that's why it's fun. :-)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By James Baker on Thursday, February 19, 2015 - 07:47 am:

Thomas and Martin, I don't believe these spindles have ever been off my cut off touring in its lifetime. The casting date on my engine is 2/22/22 so it puts it in the correct timeline for these spindles. A little history on my 22 Model T. This T has been in my family since new, my Grandpa was the last one to drive it into the family farm wood shed in 1942. I went through it and gave it a new lease on life again 69 years later in 2011.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Jelf, Parkerfield KS on Thursday, February 19, 2015 - 09:30 am:

The 2694C one-piece spindle first appears in the April 1922 parts book. It's also listed in the parts books of December 1925, August 1926, January 1927, and October 1927. It doesn't appear in the book of August 1928, which is the reprinted one most of us have. The Rodda book calls it a replacement part, but that doesn't guarantee that some cars didn't come from the factory with it.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Thomas Jull in Oakland on Thursday, February 19, 2015 - 10:05 pm:

Since James' car has them and it has been in his family since day one then that is good enough for me. I highly doubt the car was damaged so badly at some point that it required replacement of both spindles.

I bet Henry was just playing with ways to cut costs (i.e. one less part to assemble) and for one reason or another it did not work out.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Frank van Ekeren (Australia) on Friday, February 20, 2015 - 01:06 am:

The encyclopedia explains the time line when used.
They are like the double bolted fire wall mounts of early 1916's, just few months.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Henry Petrino in Modesto, CA on Friday, February 20, 2015 - 12:36 pm:

Martin and all other contributors:

Thank you! I never paid much attention to the front spindle assemblies. I have always believed my TT to be a 1918 based on several clues, but could never be certain. I now know my front end has 1915-1918 front spindle assemblies. Since production of TT's began in 1918 (except for 3 1917 trucks) you have given me another solid clue as to its year of production.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Joseph Geisler on Saturday, February 21, 2015 - 12:52 am:

I vote they were ONLY a replacement for the early cars.
Again logic not knowledge tells me this.
Does not make ANY sense guys to have a one piece on a two piece axle.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By James Baker on Saturday, February 21, 2015 - 01:15 am:

Does anyone else have a 22 with one piece spindles?


Posting is currently disabled in this topic. Contact your discussion moderator for more information.
Topics Last Day Last Week Tree View    Getting Started Formatting Troubleshooting Program Credits    New Messages Keyword Search Contact Moderators Edit Profile Administration