What is this Warford overdrive under drive or ????

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Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2015: What is this Warford overdrive under drive or ????
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Donnie Brown North Central Arkansas on Saturday, February 14, 2015 - 07:50 pm:

I have a cast iron Warford I took out of a TT a few years ago. I have someone who is interested in using it in his TT. but I know nothing to very little about them. Can someone give me a quick idea of what I have. Is it under-drive over-drive, four speed, 6 speed . ???? It was a complete unit that has the factory shortened drive shaft and radius rods and crossmember, ect. but I want to be sure it is something he will want to use ... He is coming tomorrow to pick up some other things, so I hope to have a crash course in Warfords. :-) :-)

warford 1

warford 2


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Richard Eagle Ida Fls on Saturday, February 14, 2015 - 08:08 pm:

I have some like it. They are 3 speed boxes with underdrive, direct drive and a slight overdrive. I am not sure if all boxes have the same ratios. It seems like a past posting had the ratio information.

Rich


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Frank Harris from Long Beach & Big Bear on Saturday, February 14, 2015 - 08:14 pm:

If it is a two speed gear box it depends on which rear end ratio you have. If you have four to one gears it is under drive and if you have three to one gears it is over drive.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Donnie Brown North Central Arkansas on Saturday, February 14, 2015 - 08:21 pm:

I do not know how to tell how many gears it has. The shifter is very stiff and needs cleaned to be able to shift. We will probably pull the top tomorrow and look at the gears. I had saved this one as it was the best looking drive line parts Ive seen. How can I tell what ratio the worm gear is, that is on the drive shaft. I do not have any photos of the worm gear tonight.. thanks for the input so far ...


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Richard Eagle Ida Fls on Saturday, February 14, 2015 - 08:26 pm:

My 3 speeds all have the 920-2 on the side like yours. I believe the 2 speeds had a different case.

http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/179374/245442.html?1323581748


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Seth from NC on Saturday, February 14, 2015 - 08:51 pm:

Donnie you have a typical cast iron 3 speed. On top you will see there are two shafts side by side. If it was only a two speed it would have just one shaft. The gearbox would have the shifter towards the front of the car - the shift pattern is like a lower case "h" but backwards. Over to the right and up is underdrive, straight down from there is direct drive, then half way up, over left and down is overdrive. The cast iron Warfords like yours have a slightly taller overdrive than the aluminum cases because they expected the iron ones to be in a TT. You should squirt some penetrating oil down the two shift fork shafts (the two fat metal rods laying flat on top of the box - they are open on both ends, you can see them poking out from under shift lever in your pics) and that will help it shift easier. They need to be cleaned up and greased to really move right, with the surface rust I see they might not move much at all.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Donnie Brown North Central Arkansas on Saturday, February 14, 2015 - 09:13 pm:

Seth, He is wanting to be sure it is an overdrive to give him a little higher speeds. So this being a three speed should be a good choice for him. I am selling this one to buy an aluminum warford for the speedster. Since I had all the parts to install it in a TT, I feel like it should stay together. Now next question. Since I am wanting an aluminum Warford and have located a likely candidate, what should I look for. Also do the aluminum Warfords have 2 u-joints, one u-joint, do they bolt direct to the T engine or have a coupling section like this 3 speed cast iron one. , do I need a crossmember, or anything else to watch out for . I know Ill need a shortened drive shaft and radius rods, but are there anything else needed to install an aluminum one in my speedster. Like I said I know very little about the auxillary trans setups. I almost forgot, are there different ratios for the aluminum ones.??


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Seth from NC on Saturday, February 14, 2015 - 09:33 pm:

The only difference in ratios is the actual overdrive amount, and it's not very much. I don't know off the top of my head but I want to say the aluminum ones are like .67 to 1 whereas the cast iron are .62 to 1. I'm not sure it's enough to really tell any appreciable difference when driving. But yours definitely has an overdrive.

I don't want to undercut your sale but if the gentleman wants higher speeds the Warford isn't really going to help get him there. It might get you a few mph but if you have a T that tops out at 45, adding a Warford won't get you even to 55. It takes a bit of power to turn the extra gears in overdrive. Best way to add speed is with an upgraded carburetor, then a high compression head or Pistons, then better cam, valves, and exhaust, in roughly that order. But the carb is by far the biggest bang for your buck and will provide the most instant, seat of your pants change in terms of top end and acceleration. The main thing the Warford does is lower your RPMs so you can cruise at speed without making the engine scream the whole time. My T was already capable of going just as fast without the Warford, I just would be afraid of it redlining. Just something to throw out there so the guy isn't immediately disappointed when he gets Warford installed.

For the aluminum ones you will get a lot of different opinions: some folks say you need an extra cross member to support the trans and some folks say you don't. I personally bolted my aluminum trans right up with no extra support and even with lots of driving haven't been able to tell or find any ill effects. I don't feel like it's really that much weight on the back of the engine, but your mileage may vary.

If you want to add a support it can't really hurt. With one exception - don't weld your support in. The T frame bends and flexes and twists and if you box the frame or weld in your support you are asking to create cracks. The best ones I have seen just hook over the top of the frame and aren't even bolted in. Clayton Paddison has a great one where he uses a support with a hefty spring between the support and his Chicago trans. It does a nice job of adding a little adjustable lift without getting carried away.

The aluminum cased Warfords do not use any U-joints - you just bolt it directly into the back of your engine and then your shortened driveshaft and torque tube into the back of the Warford.

As for what to look for - there may be some others on here who have more insight but I'd look for two things: what do the teeth look like and what's the overall condition. Are you going to have to rebuild the whole shifter assembly? Is the case heavily pitted? Does anything jiggle inside (suggesting bearings need replacement) or are the shafts nice and snug. How does it feel and sound when you spin the input shaft? Does she spin freely in each gear?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Donnie Brown North Central Arkansas on Saturday, February 14, 2015 - 09:59 pm:

Seth, The term "speed" may have been the wrong term when talking about a TT. The RPM issue is the main concern. I feel like the use of a Warford on a TT should give a little bit of a faster speed, and help keep the RPMs under control. Correct me if Im wrong in my thinking. I have a Chicago auxillary trans in my parts stash, that I have not looked at yet. It has the nice spring loaded crossmember you are talking about. Thanks for the input ...


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By tim moore, "Island City" MI on Saturday, February 14, 2015 - 10:24 pm:

Something is wrong there, Warfords did not have an extra U-joint.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Donnie Brown North Central Arkansas on Saturday, February 14, 2015 - 10:34 pm:

Tim, I could be wrong about the extra u-joint. My memory fails me from time to time, and I have it taped shut in the pics. I may just have been thinking the input shaft was a u-joint. Like I said earlier, I know very little about Warfords ...


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Seth from NC on Saturday, February 14, 2015 - 10:38 pm:

Donnie if you ask Clayton he will tell you the Chicago shifts better than the Warford - theyre very similar, but just something about tooth profile or tiny differences just makes it shift smoother and easier. By very similar I mean someone at one company stole the plans from the other company, lol, the insides are darn near identical. If I had a choice Id put the Chicago in myself. Much more rare than the Warford so has extra cool factor there. Also, Clayton has recently (within last couple years) completely gone through his so he would be a better guide at rebuilding your Chicago - he had to have something made for his if I remember right.

No, you are exactly right on the TT. I just didn't read and realize it was going in a TT. It will keep RPMs down and definitely let it go faster.

Tim - the cast iron Warfords did have a U-joint in the front between the gearbox and Ford transmission. You *can* run without it. But the cast iron units were meant to be supported with a crossmember and the U joint helps keep everything nice and flexible. Not sure what you think is wrong?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Clayton Swanson on Sunday, February 15, 2015 - 12:07 am:

simple tell for any gear box is, if it has two shift rods on the cover, its 3 or 4 speeds. 3 rods, 5 speeds, one rod, 2 speeds


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Donnie Brown North Central Arkansas on Sunday, February 15, 2015 - 09:05 am:

God morning everyone. Thanks for all the input. I think Ive gathered enough info for us to make a good decision. I also learned some simple but useful info for future reference. Now if my "old timer brain" will let me remember. What were we talking about .??? :-) :-) Thanks again, Its amazing how fast this forum will come to the rescue ...


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Clayton Paddison on Tuesday, August 25, 2015 - 02:03 am:

Seth is right, I will say a Chicago shifts a bit smoother then a Warford does....especially on the down shift back to Underdrive.

In regards to shifting, I did find that there is actually an intended pattern for shifting (and an extra gear) that most, if not all, of us have been missing all these years. They Are designed to be shifted like a truck...so you shift as follows:

T low/Chicago low (1st)
T low/Chicago direct (2nd)
T high/Chicago low (3rd) (simultaneous shift)
T high/Chicago direct (4th)
T High/Chicago high (5th)

The "3rd" gear simultaneous shift into T high and Chicago I to low must happen at the same time..when the T Trans is in neutral...like two ships passing in the night.

I will have to shoot another vid. It's actually pretty cool and intuitive.

Donnie, I have been through my Chicago twice, and have a second now waiting for a redo as well... So I know my way around one. If you have one and need help....I would be happy to assist.

Clayton


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Erik Barrett in Auburn Ca. on Tuesday, August 25, 2015 - 02:29 am:

It's a cast iron Warford, under, over, and direct. Yes, it has a u joint in front and behind it. Seth has all the info on this one. A great addition to any TT.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David Stroud on Tuesday, August 25, 2015 - 02:35 am:

Donnie, if you decide to not use the Chicago, I'm interested in it. Bracket and all. Dave


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Clayton Paddison on Tuesday, August 25, 2015 - 02:41 am:

As Seth mentioned, here is my Chicago mount:







And a great blow-apart I took of my Chicago.



What I had to make for mine was the bearing race retainers that thread onto the input and output shafts.



I will have to dig through my photos, or you can sort through my build threads:

Part 1
http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/179374/250060.html

Part 2
http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/257047/258045.html

Part 3
http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/257047/271040.html

Part 4
http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/257047/277981.html

Part 5
http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/257047/281087.html

Part 6
http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/257047/291069.html

Part 7
http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/257047/295223.html

Part 8
http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/257047/301952.html


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Donnie Brown North Central Arkansas on Tuesday, August 25, 2015 - 09:26 am:

Clayton, Thanks for the "Chicago" info. I found another one at Chickasha last spring. So im hoping I have plenty of good parts. I may get around to installing the engine in the Speedster project this winter and hope to do the "Chicago" then... Thanks again ....


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