1926-27 TT Truck Firewalls

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Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2015: 1926-27 TT Truck Firewalls
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Rich Chillingworth on Monday, February 16, 2015 - 04:10 pm:

The 1926-27 TT trucks retained the use of 1923-25 firewalls as part of their design. With the advent of the 1926 style carburetors where a single rod could choke and adjust the unit, did the firewalls on the 1926 TT trucks still have the priming bell crank riveted to them? If not, were the rivet holes left open?

Rich C.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By greg ragland on Monday, February 16, 2015 - 05:14 pm:

Rich, I am the owner of a 26 TT with matching numbers engine. I believe it to be an undisturbed original. The holes for the bell crank are there but have never had anything riveted in place. Another thing to look for on a 26-27 TT fire wall is the data plate which has only two rivets. The 25 and earlier had four, making the 26-27 TT fire walls unique to the 25 and earlier fire wall.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Tomaso - Milton,WA on Monday, February 16, 2015 - 05:17 pm:

1925 firewalls had a 2 rivet data plate.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By greg ragland on Monday, February 16, 2015 - 05:24 pm:

Rich, Here is a fire wall with the two rivet data plate.two rivet


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By greg ragland on Monday, February 16, 2015 - 05:44 pm:

Steve, Could this have been a crossover item in the Model T design? I have had two 1925 model T's (still have one of them) and a 1925 TT truck all having 4 rivet data plates. I was also looking on the Langs website and the 4 rivet data plate is listed as 1919-1925. Maybe others could give input on what their 1925 cars and TT trucks data plates are.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Tomaso - Milton,WA on Monday, February 16, 2015 - 09:44 pm:

Possibly. I have an original '25 Runabout although I disassembled it near 25 years ago, but the firewall is hanging on the wall and it is a 2 rivet plate. My wife's '25 Coupe also had a 2 rivet plate and was an original T from Montana. Larry Smith also has a '25 P/U and perhaps he'll chime in here - Larry ?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By greg ragland on Monday, February 16, 2015 - 09:51 pm:

Steve, Could it be a late 25 firewall?

Greg


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David Dewey, N. California on Monday, February 16, 2015 - 10:31 pm:

I have a "barn fresh" May '25 roadster, and it has a two-rivet plate.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Fred Miller, Sequim WA on Tuesday, February 17, 2015 - 04:20 am:

Hi Rich the 2 rivet Patent Plate started in Aug 1925 on the first of the 1926 TT models. Late July 1925 is when the first new style Choke Fuel Mixture control rods were used and the holes for the old Bell crank stayed.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hap Tucker in Sumter SC on Tuesday, February 17, 2015 - 07:30 am:

Rich – you originally asked, “With the advent of the 1926 style carburetors where a single rod could choke and adjust the unit, did the firewalls on the 1926 TT trucks still have the priming bell crank riveted to them? If not, were the rivet holes left open?”

Ref the “MTFCI Judging Guidelines 6th Edition” that mentions in the 1925 section, that the single choke/carb adjusting rod was introduced and the firewall was modified to accommodate the new rod starting in Apr 1925. So before the 1926 models were introduced the firewalls were already modified for the use of that single rod.

Did Ford delete the holes for the choke bell crank or fill them? I haven’t found any documentation on that. Historically Ford produced new parts that were backwards compatible with the older parts. “IF” he did that with the firewall so he did not have to stock multiple firewalls (one for the 1924-earlier 1925) and a second for the later 1925 – 1927 TTs then I believe he would have probably continued to have the two holes for the choke lever punched in the firewalls when they were made. We see this on the frames where the frame has the holes for the early style as well as the later style running board brackets. But again, I do NOT know if he did or did not leave the holes for the choke bell crank.


Note there is clear evidence that the two rivet patent plate was introduced during the 1925 model year before the 1926 model year began. Gail Rodda in his book "Model T Ford Parts Identification Guide vol 2" has the two rivet patent plate listed on page 24 as used mid 1925 to 1927.

The "MTFCI Judging Guidelines 6th Edition" has them listed for 1925 model year cars. Which I believe the early 1925 model year cars produced in the fall of 1924 would have had the four rivet -- but I may need to update my information or slim chance they may need to update their information.

And like other Model T parts, surely there was a period of overlap when cars at one plant were still using the four rivet patent plate while cars at another plant were starting to use the two rivet design. Was that minutes, hours, days, weeks, or months of overlap? I don't know. In the case of the change over from the two door valve cover engine to the single door valve cover engine we know the first normal production of the single door valve cover engine is documented as starting on Nov 1, 1921. And there was overlap with the two door valve cover engines with the last two door valve cover engine produced at the Highland Ford Plant on Apr 3, 1922 (ref: http://www.mtfca.com/encyclo/doc21.htm see Nov 1, 1921 entry). Note a two valve cover engine may have been produced at one of the branch plants after Apr 3, 1922 but not at the main plant. So it was just over 5 months when both styles of engines were produced at the main USA plant. [Note Canadian and English production change over dates may have been different.]

Below is a photo of serial number 11,416,254. The engine number is recorded on the Mar 21, 1925 engine log. The date the engine was produced would have been Mar 21, 1925 “if” the engine was assembled at the main River Rouge engine plant and not at one of the branch plants. The car was featured in the Mar-Apr 1988 “Vintage Ford” and was an original, unrestored 1925 model year non-starter and non-demountable wheel “loss leader” touring. Photo below from page 26, shows the two rivet Patent Plate on the dash (used by permission to promote our club and hobby).



Note the 1923 model year cars had the low cowl and low firewall (dash) while the 1924 model year cars that were produced starting as early as Jul 1923 by some sources had the high cowl and high cowl firewall (dash). When ordering parts such as the hood, radiator, cowl body sections, and firewall – the year the car was produced is not always the year of the parts for the car. That is especially true for cars produced around Aug 1916 which could have been 1916 model year brass radiator cars or 1917 model year black radiator cars; those around Jul 1923 which could have been 1923 model year low cowl cars or 1924 model year high cowl cars; or Aug 1926 where cars could have been model year 1925 or model year 1926 depending on which plant they were assembled that day. Just like today, the 2016 model year cars will go on sale before Jan 2016, but they will be called 2016 models even if they are sold in Oct 2015. And in some cases the difference between a very late 1917 model year and a very early 1918 model year touring both produced around Aug 1917 could have been the serial number on the engine. As Ford did running changes and introduced the new parts while the line was running.

Respectfully submitted,

Hap l9l5 cut off


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Rich Chillingworth on Friday, February 20, 2015 - 10:37 am:

Thank you for the replies – I always learn something. The firewall that came with my TT C-Cab has the primer bell crank and the two rivet data plate, possibly dating it to mid-1925 if I correctly understand what I’ve read. I didn’t get an engine with this TT and the plan is to install a 1926 motor, hence my original inquiry about whether the priming bell crank should stay.

I have one other 1925 high firewall where the two rivet data plate is mounted up near the top instead of in the lower position as seen in one of the above photos. Any ideas when it was produced? It doesn’t have a priming bell crank, but don’t know whether that was always the case, as it could have been removed at some point before it got a coat of paint. Again, thank you for your thoughts!

Rich C.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Fred Miller, Sequim WA on Friday, February 20, 2015 - 10:48 pm:

Rich the The two rivet Patent Plate that was mounted closer to the top of the firewall were used for the year model 1927 TTs. That firewall started close to August 1926 and was used till late 27 .I have one from December 1927. Its interesting to note that the TT's that were built after Aug 1927 were actually Year model 1928 Trucks. There was a little overlap with the AA's I have found.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Keith Gumbinger, Kenosha, WI on Friday, February 20, 2015 - 11:18 pm:

Fred - For TT's that were built after August, 1927, you mentioned above that these were actually year model 1928 trucks.

I've never heard of that before and wonder if you have any documentation for that.

I know that TT's were made until December, 1927, but always thought that they were just continuations of the '27 model year.


Thanks, Keith


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Fred Miller, Sequim WA on Saturday, February 21, 2015 - 03:42 am:

Keith that's just my observation. Since Ford's model year was from August to August (one year). The 1927 Enclosed TT was really built for 16 months instead of 12.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Keith Gumbinger, Kenosha, WI on Saturday, February 21, 2015 - 10:25 pm:

Fred - Thanks for the information.

Keith


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