Axle thrust washers

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Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2015: Axle thrust washers
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By jon pederson on Tuesday, February 17, 2015 - 05:06 pm:

Tearing apart the rear end of my barn purchase and I find a home made shim on the left side between the steel washer and the ring gear. What should I make of this? A backyard fix for the wearing of the thrust washer? Fixed by buying new bronze washers?
The pinion gear was chewed up, and I haven't cleaned off the ring gear completely, but surprisingly it doesn't look chipped. First rear end for me, any help is appreciated.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Don Booth@ Bay City, Mi on Tuesday, February 17, 2015 - 06:41 pm:

Its not unusual to have to shim the ring gear to get the proper clearance. Shim's can be bought at Langs and Snyders. You may need to try a couple different thickness' to get it right. Hopefully you bought the book on rebuilding the rear end. If not you should do yourself a favor and order one.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By jon pederson on Tuesday, February 17, 2015 - 08:09 pm:

Right, my next purchase. Let me ask the question differently, I'm trying to learn. At some point someone made this, was it noise, end play?
Both assume someone had the desire to maintain his car and the mechanical ability to do it. Obviously this was not stock. He had it apart, why did he think a shim was the answer?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Frank van Ekeren (Australia) on Tuesday, February 17, 2015 - 09:04 pm:

Jon, I have done several rear ends and used the best parts of what I had in pieces, they all look the same but when trying to mate parts up, there is always a difference in machining from one to another, so shimming is used in many cases to set clearances etc.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Andy Loso St Joseph, MN on Tuesday, February 17, 2015 - 09:08 pm:

Jon,

If you need any help just give me a shout, stock the parts you need as well.
aloso@q.com


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jerry Davis Houston TX. on Tuesday, February 17, 2015 - 11:12 pm:

Jon, every rear end I've had apart was and are shimed. That's the only way I know of to set the proper distance between the ring and pinion gear. The original shims were made of babbitt as it becomes the wear surface. Those old babbitt shims were subject to crazing (cracking and crumbling) to the point where the ring and pinion gears would no longer be in contact. So, being ingenious many early farmers would simply make one out of what ever material was at hand. In my case, when the washer let go, the ring gear moved so far to the side there was no contact and I had to be towed. Usually you hear a bunch of gear clatter and you know all is not right down under.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Jelf, Parkerfield KS on Wednesday, February 18, 2015 - 12:44 am:

You didn't ask, but I'll suggest the Fun Projects pinion bearing. It saves considerable hassle.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Tony Bowker on Wednesday, February 18, 2015 - 11:35 am:

I have just done a rear axle and replaced both Babbitt washers, which crumbled, with new brass washers. Both measured 0.208 and the one behind the ring gear needed to be reduced by 0.010 to get a good interface with the pinion gear. I use the method in the original rear axle book to set the ring gear to pinion clearance, threading a length of paper between the two, it should be marked but not cut. I think thick gives about 0.003 each side of the gears, running clearance? Then I install the right side, the washer was just about correct to allow the ring gear to rotate with minimal end play. Just to make sure I then installed a 0.005 shim, behind one of the steel washer, and it was now too tight.
All this is covered in the MTFCA books on the rear axle and the Ruckstell. IMHO it is foolish not to have and read these indispensable booklets.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Larry Smith on Wednesday, February 18, 2015 - 11:41 am:

I pulled apart the rear axle assembly in my '13 roadster recently, and found two perfect babbit washers. Amazing! Someone must have replaced them at some point, because it had 3-1 gears in it, but that is another story.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Gene Carrothers Huntington Beach on Wednesday, February 18, 2015 - 11:48 am:

There's another good example of why you should have your location in some form behind your name.

Luckily Andy either knew Jon or happened to take the extra steps to click on his name and see that he lives close to Jon.

Everyone should take the time to include a location. Hey, we're not asking for your address.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Tomaso - Milton,WA on Wednesday, February 18, 2015 - 12:24 pm:

Here's what I found in a recent rebuild for a customer ! Biggest piece of either original thrust washer was barely distinguishable and the size of a half dollar.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Roger Karlsson, southern Sweden on Wednesday, February 18, 2015 - 12:43 pm:

Jon: It's odd to find the pinion chipped up while the ring gear is fine - usually it's the other way around.

Please show more pictures of what you find inside :-)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Jelf, Parkerfield KS on Wednesday, February 18, 2015 - 01:03 pm:


These are the biggest pieces of thrust washer that were in my 1923 touring.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By jon pederson on Wednesday, February 18, 2015 - 02:57 pm:

Roger,
Once I get the grease off I'll take a pic and post it. I took it apart in my unheated garage (Minneapolis, MN) at about 2 degrees, no need to worry about anything dripping on the floor. One of the pinion bearing rollers was broken in half, I suspect something from that got into the gear. I used a heat gun on the grease and got most to dribble into a pan to look at the ring. Once I get it back from a solvent tank I'll know.
Andy,
I'll be up to see you Spring time, I still need to get my pan to you.
Thanks for all the input, this place is great.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By jon pederson, Minneapolis,MN on Wednesday, February 18, 2015 - 04:32 pm:

After my previous post I decided to brave the cold and clean it up. 3 pics of the ring gear and one of the pinion. I have a good used pinion, but any thoughts on reusing the ring gear? I won't be driving my T to Yellowstone, just around the lake and in a couple parades.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Roger Karlsson, southern Sweden on Wednesday, February 18, 2015 - 04:46 pm:

The ring gear looks perfect compared to the ones I've found digging through used axles. I would try it with a good used pinion, can't be more than noisy?

The pinion bearing would have to be like new if I would dare reusing it, though - like Steve and many others I'd prefer the Fun Projects replacement bearing.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Andy Loso St Joseph, MN on Wednesday, February 18, 2015 - 09:19 pm:

Jon,

The heat is always on...

We are having a work meeting this Saturday in St Cloud if you are interested. We will be tearing an engine down and pouring bearings in another.

Andy


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By william louis rosenthal on Thursday, February 19, 2015 - 09:42 am:

I'm not the rear end gear expert, so bare with these thoughts of a novice...Tooth profile on the ring gear appears worn as per the necked down tooth sections that are evident in the photos. If you were to install a quality pinion gear, I would expect that one or the other, or both gears will wear rapidly to conform to these non-compatible pressure angles. This may or may not result in rear end noise, but I should think this would certainly impact your backlash setting. I would install a better gear set, given the time and effort required to tear this down, to say nothing of related safety issues.
Regards,
Scott


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jerry VanOoteghem - SE Michigan on Thursday, February 19, 2015 - 10:48 am:

I would say that the ring gear does not look too bad. Not having worked on the rear ends in my T's for some time, I suspect I'm using worse than that now. I also suspect most of us are. The pinion of course is junk.

However, look at both sides of each & every tooth before you declare it good.

I would want to use a good original pinion as a replacement. Nothing wrong with newly manufactured pinions but I only use them with newly manufactured ring gears. Variations in manufacture between new & old may cause gear noise.


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