Old Photo - Early Brass Era Motor Car Rally

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Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2015: Old Photo - Early Brass Era Motor Car Rally
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jay - In Northern California on Wednesday, February 18, 2015 - 09:00 am:


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ken Parker on Wednesday, February 18, 2015 - 10:14 am:

Jay,

The photograph was taken in Anthony, Harper County, Kansas. Population 2,669 in 1916 but the photo is probably earlier.

The Geo. K. Crooker & Co. is a drug store listed in the Era Druggists' Directory-18th Edition, 1916. Appears to be about 134 West Main but I don't know how to copy a Google Map picture.

There are some early Fords in the lead row.

Ken in Texas


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Richard Eagle Ida Fls on Wednesday, February 18, 2015 - 10:25 am:

I would say 1908 judging by the REO fenders and lack of Model T's.

Rich


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Perry Goble on Wednesday, February 18, 2015 - 10:59 am:

The Fords look to be Model R's . Ford offered them in 07 and 08 .


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Perry Goble on Wednesday, February 18, 2015 - 11:02 am:

There is all so a Model N ford 06 to 08 cut in half.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Roger Karlsson, southern Sweden on Wednesday, February 18, 2015 - 11:08 am:

It's interesting most of them had tops, but still no windshields, just roll down windshields for wintertime, I guess.
They got good sun protection from the tops and windshields weren't really needed when driving 25-35 mph max..


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jerry VanOoteghem - SE Michigan on Wednesday, February 18, 2015 - 12:58 pm:

There is an N, R & S there. Cool.

Far left: Mod. S
Fifth from the left: Model R
Cut off on right: Model N


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Gilbert V. I. Fitzhugh on Wednesday, February 18, 2015 - 09:23 pm:

I wonder whether the car in the front row between the two REOs is a Model G Cadillac? Predecessor of the Model 30.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Trent Boggess on Thursday, February 19, 2015 - 07:52 am:

I question whether the car fifth from the left is a Model R. When I look at the picture the tires size look to be a little small. Model Rs came with 30x3 tires all around. Model S and Model N runabouts used 28x3 tires all around. The tires on the 5th car look to be the same size as the Model N cut in half on the right.

My guess is that the fifth car was a Model S Runabout.

Respectfully Submitted,

Trent Boggess


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ken Parker on Thursday, February 19, 2015 - 08:49 am:

Is that a Franklin air cooled in the second row right? The lady has her parasol and is ready for the tour.

Great photo. Anthony Kansas is about 70 miles southwest of Kansas City and about 10 miles north of Indian Territory at that time.

Ken in Texas


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Rob Heyen on Thursday, February 19, 2015 - 01:54 pm:

I wonder if this is part of a 40 car run between Kansas City and Oklahoma City that took place in September, 1908:



While not directly on the route, Anthony is not too far off a route between K.C., Wichita and Oklahoma City:



In this article, a Ford six and Stoddard made the initial pathfinder run to K.C. From Oklahoma City the day before, and the miles are listed at 465. The mapquest mileage is only 347 so some out of the way towns must have been included on the 1908 route.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Rob Heyen on Thursday, February 19, 2015 - 02:08 pm:

Disregard my last post. I think the right corner of the photo may read "August 1908." If so, it's a month too early for the K.C.-Ok City run. Also, Anthony looks out of the way between Arkansas City and Wichita. :-(


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Rob Heyen on Thursday, February 19, 2015 - 02:11 pm:

August 1908?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Clayton Swanson on Thursday, February 19, 2015 - 02:37 pm:

looks like a photo of the moon to me! you must have better eyes rob


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Rob Heyen on Thursday, February 19, 2015 - 02:51 pm:

Clayton,
This is what I think it may read:


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hap Tucker in Sumter SC on Thursday, February 19, 2015 - 09:23 pm:

Jay – thank you for another great photo.

In addition to the Aug 1908 in the lower right hand corner we also see that the car on the far right is a Ford Model S Roadster. Note the rounded cowl and fenders with fenders skirts as well as the mother-in-law seat clearly identify it as the S Roadster.



The Model S Roadster first began shipping in Mar 1908 (ref Trent’s [thank you for compiling this one and so many other documents!] Early Ford Database, available from the Benson Ford Archives; on Bruce McCalley’s “Model T Comprehensive Encyclopedia” and also included in Pate’s Early Ford Automobile Encyclopedia.) So we know the photo was taken on or after Mar 1908.

I agree with Trent (hey – he has seen a lot more early Fords than I ever will) I also believe the 5th car is most likely a Model S Runabout. In reality it is difficult to tell from that photo. And of course we need to remind ourselves that the wheels can easily be swapped between a Model S Runabout and a Model R Runabout (for example the Model R Runabout at the Henry Ford Museum has the smaller 28 inch Model S Runabout and Model N Runabout wheels). But since the photo doesn’t appear to have any Ts and it is labeled Aug 1908, it would be unlikely for an owner to swap out the wheels on his one or two year old car.

Another reason I suspect it is a Model S Runabout is described below (taken from a reprint of a 1908 sales brochure. Note we know they are refering to the Model S Runabout and Not the Model S Roadster because the S Roadster doesn't look very much like the S Runabout and it was NOT included in the sales brouchure. The Model S Runabout began shipping in Aug 1907 again Ref Trent's "Early Ford Database." )



Note it is my understanding [corrections are welcomed] the Model R Runabout was primarily offered with the running gear, wheels, and body the same color. In the photo below I believe the running gear and wheels are a cream color and the body a Brewster Green (dark green). Disclaimer – yes, there were variations and any owner could always have the car painted any way they wanted. But it is another item that make me lean more towards Model S Runabout rather than Model R Runabout.



And below from the 1908 Price List of Parts it shows how Ford even used a single illustration for the side view of a Model R Runabout or a Model S Runabout. [Note that same illustration was used previously in the 1907 Model R Runabout sales brochure. And on the cover of that brochure they show a green body with a yellow running gear. I'm guessing that was to make the cover more appealing. But paint schemes for 1906-1908 N,R,S, & SR cars are one the items I have had a lot of difficulty tracking down. So corrections or additions would be welcomed. ] The Model R Runabout and Model S Runabouts used the same fenders and running boards, the chassis was basically the same except for the wheel size with R at 30 inch or S-Runabout at 28 inch.



And if anyone would like a free copy of an article on "How to ID the Model N,R,S,&SR Fords" please drop me an e-mail with "Send ID for NRS&SR Ford or something similar in the subject.

Respectfully submitted,

Hap l9l5 cut off


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jerry VanOoteghem - SE Michigan on Thursday, February 19, 2015 - 11:59 pm:

Trent, et al,

I'll go along with S Runabout fro car #5. The thought had occurred to me as well but the wheel size comparison did not come to mind. Good call.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ken Parker on Friday, February 20, 2015 - 05:12 am:

Hap,

The Fords at the center and right side of the rally photograph have a single gas lamp as a driving light which was apparently offered by Ford. A photograph has been posted before on the Forum showing that accessory. The first car doesn't have a driving lamp but the next two carry one. The last car you can barely see the edge of its gas lamp.




Is that the way most of the Model S were equipped?

The Ford on the left in the rally may have one as well but I can't see it except to say none carried forks to have two gas lamps on the front.


Ken in Texas

(Message edited by drkbp on February 20, 2015)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hap Tucker in Sumter SC on Friday, February 20, 2015 - 08:35 am:

Ken,

Good question. During the early years of the auto industry folks were trying to figure out the best way to market cars and owners were trying to figure out the best way to equip and use cars. Unlike the later Model T Ford that was sold complete with lamps, tops, speedometer, windshield etc. after the initial 1909 year or so for many of the earlier cars as with the 1909 Fords, the tops were an extra. And for the Model N cars, just about everything was an extra depending on when it was purchased. For example below is an extract from an Apr 22, 1907 sales agreement made to purchase a Model N Runabout. [Thank you to Don Jack for supplying that scan.]




The top (including top irons) was $50 extra. The side lamps, tail lamp were extra at $14.50. The gas lamps (notice plural) were $42.50. That was $107.00 additional to the $625 base price of the Model N Runabout at that time. That is a 17% increase in the cost of the car. So if you purchased a $20,000 car today that would be adding an additional $3424 to the cost to have the ability to drive relatively comfortably at night or in the weather (heater – they didn’t offer one!).

So each purchaser could order what they wanted. Or dealers could order what they thought they could sell. In the case of the single mounted spot light, They are listed as one of the accessories available direct from Ford installed new on the car before it was shipped. (Same for the top, exhaust horn/whistle etc.) A review of the other cars in the same picture on the loading dock [see: http://www.thehenryford.org/ShowImage.aspx?f=THF37634_P.O.1020_PiquetteAve-ShippingPlatform_ca1906.jpg&h=420&w=470 ] show that only two of the cars had tops. The rest did not. And only those two cars had the spot lights. Which indicates to me out of the cars shown none had headlamps, only two had tops and spot lights, and the rest only had the side & tail lamps (they came as a set). [Note from memory I think the very first car in the original photo that does not show the radiator was discussed previously and it was determined if it was a Model S Roadster or Model K Roadster. I don’t remember the outcome for sure – and if you have a high resolution copy of the photo you should be able to zoom in and see if the car has one lever – Model S Roadster or 2 levers – Model K Roadster.]

Also from the few early photos I have reviewed (not enough to establish an actual trend) from memory, I believe more of the later cars had headlamps than the earlier cars – i.e. 1906 fewer and 1908 the most. And there were more cars with headlamps than spot lights.

There is a chance we could document that better by using the Accounts receivable ledgers to see how much the cars sold for. We might be able to determine what accessory combination they came with – or maybe not – if the prices changed over time etc.

And as always we would welcome additional information supporting or correcting that initial observation of a very limited number of early photos.

Respectfully submitted,

Hap l9l5 cut off


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Trent Boggess on Friday, February 20, 2015 - 09:25 am:

Hap,

I agree that the right hand car is a 1908 S Roadster. I was thrown off by the angle shot showing the left rear fender. I did not look closely enough, and thought that it was an N.

Further evidence that it is an S Roadster are the side lights, which are E&J flare sides. These were some of the most frequently used side lights on S Roadsters.

The top is also a give away. The top looks to be an American, and note the rolled up wind screen. The drawing for the windscreen is in the collections of the Benson Ford. The top was extra.

Just out of curiosity, it would be interesting to see the tail light. According to the NRS Record of Change cards, the Tail light should be a Gray & Davis. The Record of Change card notes "S Roadster only".

Respectfully Submitted,

Trent Boggess


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ken Parker on Friday, February 20, 2015 - 10:24 am:

Hap,

There is a photo I am sure you have of a K with headlights and spotlight posted some years back taken around the same time.



There is no windshield on the car and makes a mount easy like the Solar style above. There is a Prest-O-Lite B tank on the running board and an MC on the firewall of that K. The photo of the car is from The Henry Ford but don't know the date.

We call them Prest-O-Lites but there were others in the trade. That MC would be right-on for fueling the spotlight because it may be a 4" or 5" Mangin lamp that would use a 1/4 to 1/2 cfh burner. The driver could have handled the lighting of that spotlight lamp and direction without ever leaving his seat. That same size was used extensively on motorcycles at that time.

One of the attractions to the manufacturer is that the Prest-O-Lite bottles were owned by Prest-O-Lite and apparently not sold to/or by Ford. It could be that the "1 pair of gas lamps attached" included a generator but it seems like it would have said generator. They were not cheap even then.

Ken in Texas


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Rob Heyen on Friday, February 20, 2015 - 02:17 pm:

The K posted above is a 1906 model. The car was a prop used by an actor, both on stage and for this photo:


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hap Tucker in Sumter SC on Friday, February 20, 2015 - 09:36 pm:

My bad – I did mix up my left and rights on describing the Model S Roadster in the posting above. I will write an “L” on my left hand every day for the next week so I don’t get them backwards again. For folks like me that may get those “reversed some of the time” I have a photo without reference to left or right.







I think there is a search light mounted on the dash of the Model N Runabout above. As always a higher resolution photo would make it easier to figure out additional details. And being able to walk around the car would be even better.

Again thank you to all for looking and especially those who posted.

Respectfully submitted,

Hap l9l5 cut off


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Wayne Sheldon, Grass Valley, CA on Saturday, February 21, 2015 - 01:05 am:

It is not always about dyslexia. Perspective is a big problem for a lot of people. In the theater, they solved it by calling it "stage right" or "stage left", which they define (according to on-line Webster's) as right or left from the point of view of a person on stage that is facing the audience. An automobile's right side is always its right side, regardless of what direction it is facing. Just as your friend's right hand is always his right hand even when he is facing you and his right hand is to your left.
However, photos have a slight ambiguity. We read from left to right, at least that is what I was told. So we tend to think of a page (or computer screen) as having a "left" or "right" side based on our perspective, when that is actually the reverse of the norm. A person. a car, almost anything has a right or left based upon its perspective. When a page is facing out toward you, shouldn't its right and left be like everything else? Most of us don't tend to think of it that way. The best you can really do is to clarify by saying "to your right" or "from your left".

Now, back to the photo! I still want to know what the car is, front row, third from your left?
Drive carefully, and enjoy, W2


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