How Free is a "Free" Neutral?

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Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2015: How Free is a "Free" Neutral?
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mark Strange - Hillsboro, MO on Thursday, February 26, 2015 - 04:42 pm:

My 1924 cut-off touring (now a pickup) runs well and doesn't "creep" when I start it (even when it's cold), so it's neutral must be "free" enough. The car came to me with a Jackrabbit aftermarket high clutch pack. According to the receipts I got with the car, it also has an aftermarket 1925 style brake drum that has provisions for the lug "shoes".

I have seen it written somewhere that, in neutral, you should be able to push the car around on a level surface with one hand - there's no way I can do that with my car, although it moves easily enough if I get a good grip on it with both hands and pull steadily.

Should I be happy with it the way it is, or should my neutral be more "free"? :-)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jerry VanOoteghem - SE Michigan on Thursday, February 26, 2015 - 05:00 pm:

Mark,

Sounds like it's doing just fine. The comment about pushing the car with one hand on level ground might have been a little overstated.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By john kuehn on Thursday, February 26, 2015 - 07:08 pm:

Mark you mention using both hands to steadily move it is about right. My T's (3) will roll after a little 2 hand nudging on it but rolling easily may a little much.

To me a free neutral is when you can put the hand brake straight up and you can pull up on the crank without the car moving.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Val Soupios on Thursday, February 26, 2015 - 07:41 pm:

With my jumbo planetor transmission in neutral I can push my '27 touring with one hand but If I am in Ford neutral only it takes both hands and a good shove! As long as it doesn't creep when warmed up I would think you have it right. Even better if it won't creep when cold. All mine do but I run straight 30W oil.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hal Davis-SE Georgia on Thursday, February 26, 2015 - 07:57 pm:

If it will hand crank cold and not creep forward, that's free enough for me.

Just a tip. Push a car by the top of its tires. Only takes half the effort of pushing the body.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By G.R.Cheshire on Thursday, February 26, 2015 - 08:39 pm:

I find that it takes more than a little effort to get mine started rolling but once it is moving it's easy to keep it moving. The person who taught me told me if it doesn't creep it's good


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dennis Seth - Ohio on Friday, February 27, 2015 - 06:39 am:

Gentlemen, Your trying to move 1200 lbs from a dead stop. It will take some force to get it started. Laws of physical motion apply.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Alan George Long on Friday, February 27, 2015 - 06:49 am:

There are many more items here. You have to also consider tyre pressure, type of tyres, hand brake adjustment and wheel toe in and of course a "free neutral" in the transmission to be able to push the car around. Just my thoughts


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By john kuehn on Friday, February 27, 2015 - 09:13 am:

Maybe another Model T half truth? I have read or heard the one hand or easy rolling explanation before also.
If you think you can roll a T Touring easily and go to rear of the car and push on the rear seat back panel you will in for a big 'dent' surprise!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Charlie B actually in Toms River N.J. on Friday, February 27, 2015 - 09:54 am:

Yeah there's a bit of legend or lore in that pushing it around statement. No creep when running is about as good as it gets. Starting a dead weight, tire pressure and a few other conditions affect this old wive's tale. It can be done if your last name is Kent.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bob Coiro on Friday, February 27, 2015 - 12:10 pm:

A Model T that creeps on start-up, but not after its warmed up, might be using too thick a motor oil. -If you're using straight 30-weight, you might try 5W30. -

While it's true that multi-weight oils tend to thin out a bit as they age, that won't matter much if you change your oil every thousand miles—which is what you really should do in the case of a car without an oil filter. -Like many Flivver owners, I put on less than 1,000 miles per year, so this isn't a hardship. - In that case, the best time to change the oil is when you garage the car for the winter, so the engine can soak in nice, clean oil.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Henry Petrino in Modesto, CA on Friday, February 27, 2015 - 12:24 pm:

My TT has a Muncie auxiliary transmission, so I have a true neutral and therefore no creep. However, when I first start it and let it warm up it's difficult to get into gear (the Muncie) without a little grinding. Once is has traveled a very short distance the problem disappears completely.

I've never been able to decide if this is the result of the same thing that causes creep in a T without an auxiliary transmission or if the Muncie itself needs a little motion to loosen up.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Roger Karlsson, southern Sweden on Friday, February 27, 2015 - 01:33 pm:

Henry, if your TT still has the transmission brake, you can hold the input shaft still in the Munchie to be able to put it in gear without grinding. If it doesn't want to get in gear, loosen the push on the gear stick and loosen the brake momentarily so the input shaft finds another angle. Then try the stick again :-)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Henry Petrino in Modesto, CA on Friday, February 27, 2015 - 02:50 pm:

Thanks Roger! It has Bennett brakes with the Bennett pedal. So, no transmission brake cam and consequently no transmission brake. I'll work on you shifting strategy and see if it helps.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Roger Karlsson, southern Sweden on Friday, February 27, 2015 - 04:52 pm:

Well, without the cam on the brake pedal you can't get the input shaft to stop while getting it in gear, unless you can just barely touch the reverse pedal and get the slight reverse drag to counteract the forward drag from the clutch, making it stop for a moment? Worth a try? but should be tricky..


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Henry Petrino in Modesto, CA on Friday, February 27, 2015 - 05:06 pm:

Now that's an idea. It never occurred to me that the reverse pedal might be useful in this way. It never gets used since the Muncie has a reverse, so I don't think about it.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Frank van Ekeren (Australia) on Friday, February 27, 2015 - 06:48 pm:

I can still push with one hand and 20/50 oil and I'm not built like this anymore 30+ years older now!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ricks - Surf City on Friday, February 27, 2015 - 07:04 pm:

A T clutch can never be as free as a dry clutch.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Roger Karlsson, southern Sweden on Sunday, March 01, 2015 - 09:36 am:

Henry - as long as your TT is better to shift than this russian truck, you'll be fine :-) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0DnD3H1CKxs


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Henry Petrino in Modesto, CA on Sunday, March 01, 2015 - 09:47 am:

Anybody here speak Russian? He didn't say much, but I want to be sure I use the right swear words! :-)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Henry Petrino in Modesto, CA on Saturday, March 07, 2015 - 08:02 pm:

Roger Karlsson,

Thank you!!! Today I took the ol' truck out for the first time in a couple of months. As you suggested I tried lightly feathering the reverse pedal before shifting it. It ordinarily grinds like a coffee grinder the first time. This time it slipped into gear like it had developed a synchromesh since last time. Worked like a charm!


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