Replacing an engine pan arm

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Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2015: Replacing an engine pan arm
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Gary London, Camarillo, CA on Saturday, February 28, 2015 - 04:19 am:

I have a very nice 15 pan that is original to my engine but it has a broken pan arm. It looks like someone then cut it off so all that remains is the part with the rivets that is brazed to the pan. I have replacement ears. Has anyone done this repair, and if so can you provide details on how to change it? I have been told basically drill out the rivets, heat the whole area to remove the brass , rivet the new ear in place and rebraze it. I am comfortable with the riveting but I have never tried to remove an arm. If it was a later pan I'd just change it out, but I'd like to save this pan. I am not in a rush, and I'd like to do it right.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Roger Karlsson, southern Sweden on Saturday, February 28, 2015 - 04:58 am:

You'll need lots and lots of heat that may distort the pan? Maybe you can weld on a cut off replacement on the edge of the one still on the pan? Check so the weld zone isn't contaminated with brass, that wouldn't make a good weld.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Allan Bennett - Australia on Saturday, February 28, 2015 - 07:31 am:

Gary, as Roger pointed out, it will take a lot of heat to remove the damaged ear, risking much warpage of the pan.

I have had very mixed success doing this. I have two observations, which may or may not be of much use.

First, I would remove the damaged ear by mechanical means. Drill out the rivets and grind away the damaged ear back to the bronze used in the factory installation. When fitting the new ear,bolt it on first. I would recommend bolting a cast iron hogshead to the pan to help hold its shape, and then bronze welding the new ear in place. You are not likely to get the same penetration as was achieved originally. Once that is done, the arm bolts can be replaced with hot rivets, and the heads bronzed on the inside.

Second, be aware that there are differences in the pan arms. A later arm is made to accommodate the rolled outer re-inforcing edge of the pan.

Hope this helps.
Allan from down under.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Gary M. Wheeler on Saturday, February 28, 2015 - 07:31 am:

I had the same issue with my 1914 original pan. I sent my original motor up to J&M Machine Shop in Mass. for a complete rebuild. I ended up purchasing another 1914 pan, taking the arm off that one, and J&M brazed/riveted/welded...(whatever they do) that arm onto my pan.
The job MUST be done with the proper jig so the pan stays in perfect alignment and there is no warping. The job came out perfect. The engine dropped right in the chassis with no alignment issues at all.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John McGinnis in San Jose area, CA. on Saturday, February 28, 2015 - 07:42 am:

Just do what Roger says....weld on an extension/replacement piece to whatever is existing. That is easy.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Les Schubert on Saturday, February 28, 2015 - 09:24 am:

Gary
Did it to save a '13 pan
1. Drill out the rivets
2. Cut away as much as possible using a cutting disc on angle grinder
3. Grind away the rest
4. Use a similar process to remove the "new" arm from the diner pan. As mentioned, try to find the correct style
5. Spend some time fitting it and temporarily use bolts
6. Give the surface you will braze a good coating of "Handy Flux"
7. Cold rivet it together
8.i have a couple of big pieces of 3x4x1/4 angle 4' long and I clamp and bolt to pan rails (same as I use for pan straightening)
9. Using a big tip on the torch, braze it together
10 check and final straighten as needed
11. Have a beer, you've earned it!!!!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Gary London, Camarillo, CA on Saturday, February 28, 2015 - 11:36 am:

les; why cold riveting? I expected to hot rivet.

I''ve got an extra cast iron hogs head around and may have a couple of pieces of scrap angle iron big enough for this, I'll see.

I think the ticket for removal is using a mechanical method.... I can cut/grind it off. I don't have to remove the donor arm, I have a couple of NOS ones. But I will need to confirm they are the correct style, they very well may be later. I guess even if they are it's better to use them than toss the pan.

I'm not home now so I can't take a picture, but welding an extension doesn't seem like an option here. It is cut off just above the brazed area, I could only weld what I could get to from the 'outside' of the pan. I do have an old pan that was in a front end collision and could cut the donor piece from that, I just can't see how to actually weld it very well.

I'll try to take a picture this afternoon.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Joseph Geisler on Saturday, February 28, 2015 - 12:33 pm:

Ok I will chime in here to help is all. I am NOT a know it all! I am still learning (lol).
Allan is correct in his method of replacement of the ear on the pan. Les is on target too.
You will still have to put the pan on a straightening jig to check it / rebend it before installation on your engine/ trans. assy.
There are many club members with such a jig. Surely some in Aussy land.
I made mine 36 years ago.
Cold riveting on such a small shanked rivet is what to do. Hot riveting the shaft will loose heat on assy. and could pop off the formed head later. Do not just heat the shank after assy. to head it. Use a solid back up stand to support the opposite head forming tool. You will need two of them. I have explained on other threads on this forum how to make those (rivet heading tools).
Brass was used by the factory here to seal the pan. Inside and out but don't get carried away with the brass weld filler metal use. The RIVETS hold the ears on! The brazing seals it is all. Do not try to weld a patch onto the ear! It can be done but really isn't something for the beginner! Butt welds usually need a reinforcement where there is a lot of vibration and torque.
When brazing brass you are WELDING (cohesion). When brazing steel or gray iron you are hard soldering (ADhesion).
Sorry if I offended any of you guys who have done it differently.
Donnie knows me out there and I am sure if I made a mistake he can correct me! Donnie was a professional welder for those who might not know.
Joe in Mo.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Joseph Geisler on Saturday, February 28, 2015 - 12:36 pm:

A quick note addition here.
Install the 1/4" rivets with the head on the outside of the pan. For show. Do your heading upset on the inside.
Again I hope this helps!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Gary London, Camarillo, CA on Saturday, February 28, 2015 - 03:39 pm:

Joe; I'm comfortable setting hot rivets, I've mounted frame hangers, cross members and rear axle plates. I've got the rivets, bucking bars and setting tools. I planned on having the preformed head on the outside and setting from the inside, but I planned on setting them hot so they would pull everything tight when they cooled, just like when I set them on the frame. I'm not a pro, just don't understand the reasoning for setting cold. The shank size is the same as many of the frame rivets, and those are set hot.

I'll have the pan checked on a jig after setting the rivets. Right now it's very straight and square; I'm finishing the assembly of an engine now and put this on it and verified the 4th main fit last night; it's perfect. But I do understand the need after replacing the arm


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Allan Bennett - Australia on Saturday, February 28, 2015 - 07:48 pm:

Gary, as far as I know, the arms which suit the pans with the later rolled down strengthening edge on the outside, are of a different shape. From the surface which rests on the frame, the arm is longer by the depth of the rolled strengthening edge on the pan, before it is bent in to follow the contour of the pan side.

If this is a valid observation, whatever arm you instal, it needs to be set at a height the same as the one on the other side of your pan.

Hope this helps.
Allan from down under.

PS. If your existing pan ear has the tapered tops to the ridges over the frame, this can be duplicated in the replacement arm relatively easily. Just cut a tapered V shaped piece, 1/4" wide at the outside end and into the bend on the arm, and beat the V closed. This will give the taper you need and it is easily welded up and file file finished.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Gary London, Camarillo, CA on Saturday, February 28, 2015 - 08:37 pm:

The new arms are later; the bottom is cut straight across. The original arms have a point at the bottom of them. I will be careful to place the height where it rests on the frame exactly as the other arm. I don't have the taper on this pan, but I really appreciate the idea and will remember it.


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