Titleing a model T made out of parts in Minn.

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Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2015: Titleing a model T made out of parts in Minn.
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Matt Lindberg on Tuesday, March 03, 2015 - 01:28 pm:

I recently built a wood body model T from a bunch of parts that were collected over many years. When I went to the DMV to get a title for it they told me that I have to pay sales tax on the actual value of the completed car. They did say I could deduct any parts I bought for it if I had receipts but everything was bought from private parties or auction sales so I don't have any receipts. What made the pile of parts that I maybe had $1000 into worth what it is today (I am estimating $6000-$8000) was all of the hard work and time that I put into it, which they told me was not deductible. Has anyone else been through this? or have any advice for me? Thanks in advance.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Tony Barchock Canton, Mi on Tuesday, March 03, 2015 - 01:47 pm:

OK there is your issue, you said you built it.

Your state will be different as to the steps BUT should be similar.

You will use the engine number (you can find the production year via the engine number here) and apply for a lost title. I assume you have a Bill Of sale from the engine?

Either way there should be outlined paper work to title a vehicle that did not come with or was purchased without a title. I suggest researching your state to see when they started to issue titles and use this as leverage. You may have to buy a surety bond. DO NOT get this from a bond agency you can get one cheaper through your insurance agent.

As a reference it took me 2 months worth or research and talking. A surety bond, paperwork and a few trips to the Secretary of State, our DMV, and in 12 weeks I had a title.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Henry Petrino in Modesto, CA on Tuesday, March 03, 2015 - 01:57 pm:

I agree with Tony. You have a T with lost title. You DO NOT have a home made car. In many states (I don't know about Minn.) if you say you built it not only will the fees be killer, but since you'd be documenting a 2015 year of manufacture you will probably be compelled to comply with current smog requirements and safety requirements, which is virtually impossible to do and end up with an actual Ford Model T.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Clayton Swanson on Tuesday, March 03, 2015 - 02:10 pm:

i have done it many times. first of all, you must have asked for normal plates. because collector plates, or pioneer plates (what you should have, for cars made before 1935) there is only a flat one time tax, 150.00. when you go to your regular license plate store, you bring a picture of all 4 sides of the vehicle and the vin #on the block. then you fill out the "statement of facts" form. in this form they ask where you got it. you say swap meet, dad gave it to me, on the property when i moved here. had a title years ago but lost it. take your pick because it doesnt matter, no one will contest you. all that matters is the vin number which they will run thru the nation wide data base to see if it shows up as being already registered. they will have they're "panel of experts" look at your photos, and if they decide its worth more than 2000 dollars, you will get a notice telling you to have it bonded for the value they place on it. if less than 2000, then you get a title in the mail. i've done about 10 of em, and only once had to trailer the thing to an inspection station to have the vin verified, which means the guy stood on the street and looked at the motor number from 4 feet away and said "yup, thats the number". title came 2 weeks later. its easy, dont tell them you made it.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David Dewey, N. California on Tuesday, March 03, 2015 - 02:18 pm:

Your first mistake was telling them you built it from a pile of parts. NEVER tell any Motor Licensing agency that! It's just a Model T, with VIN number XXXX (engine number usually, but it is best to have that number also stamped on the frame, preferred location passenger side, top of the frame rail, under the floorboard area where it can be easily seen by lifting the floorboards. This is where Ford started stamping them in '26.
As to it's history, well you know it wasn't on the road to be licensed for some time. If you live in a rural area, or on acreage, it "must have been stored on the property XX number of years. All paperwork is lost!"
None of these statements by themselves are falsehoods--however, the sum of them may be--but what they are looking for is criminal activity--stolen vehicles, unlicensed vehicles being driven on the streets, so taxes were not paid. They are also looking for any revenue they may collect.
We are not trying to "put one over on them" we are just trying to enjoy our Model Ts and be able to drive them on the streets.
On two of my model Ts, the story was 100% true; the car had been on their respective previous owners' property; in one case the owner died & no one knew where the paperwork was, in the other case, the farmhouse burned down with the paperwork inside it. In both cases, the heirs filled out the "Statement of Facts" form for me along with a "Bill of Sale" form and off I went to have my "new" car registered--after paying a Licensed Verifier to fill out the form verifying the VIN numbers (who was also a car enthusiast and knew where to look and what to write on the form.
Best advice: seek the council of someone who has already gone through this in your area--it is sometimes wise to know to which office of the department you should go! The clerks are not all trained the same!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Clayton Swanson on Tuesday, March 03, 2015 - 02:25 pm:

i never mentioned minnesota in my last post, i guess if i would change my profile as asked it would be there to see!!, anyway, yes i am in minnesota ,done it many times, call 612 919 2208, or pm if you want to hear any more about it.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Pat Clark-Deer Lodge, Tn on Tuesday, March 03, 2015 - 04:01 pm:

I have gone down the road you are in Mn. I had built a '37 Chevy pickup from parts, bought the body one the rebuilt chassis, with a bill of sale only. They have 3 different ways to do it. The way you just said, and bonding it for 3 years. I got the title for my bare '27 coupe body, before ever working on it. I guess I lucked out. I sold my '37 without a title. I worked on getting it for 2 1/2 years with no luck! I had a receipt for every single nut & bolt. The guy I sold it to had the truck completely finished, I mean show style! He could not get the title either, and bitched at me, for not having a title. I sold it with a bill of sale because there wasn't a title, he knew it. I told him to bring back, and I'd give him his money back. Never heard form him again!

What would I do if I still lived there, Go to South Dakota, and get a title from them, they hand them out, and then transfer it to MN. They just want to get them out of the fields. Buying a title can backfire on you. I know of someone it did. I had brought a '27 Tudor Sedan(no title), And my '27 Coupe body(with a MN title) with me to Tn, and it was nothing to get the Tudor a title, with plates the same day. I even transfered the plates to the truck I was driving.

I also bought a '67 Camaro, back in '78, from a friends auto yard. I had to get the title myself. I ended up I buying a different one, and stripped, and junking the first one, because I could not get a title for it.

Pat

Pat


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Matt Lindberg on Tuesday, March 03, 2015 - 04:18 pm:

Thank You all for the info! I will try it again as a Lost Title.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Jelf, Parkerfield KS on Tuesday, March 03, 2015 - 04:31 pm:

A good general rule is to answer only what is asked and never volunteer any information. It only confuses them. :-)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John L Williams on Tuesday, March 03, 2015 - 05:36 pm:

Hi From Iowa: A little off topic, but to make many of you feel better, let me tell what they have done to us old car guys here(some of us are old too)!! I guess we were not making the state enough money so they took our Antique plates away from us - make us use regular plates that never go down in price of $50/year for each car forever! It costs me $50/yr for my T that gets little use & $15/yr for my ole BMW Z3 that I drive all summer - because it does go down each yr???? Sorry to rant, but I would like to find a way to register somewhere else and take away all their fees! Does anyone have any suggestions? John


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By john kuehn on Tuesday, March 03, 2015 - 05:37 pm:

Anybody ever tried to get a title by using the 'inheritance' way in Texas?
The last T I built I started with a frame and a few other parts.
I inherited everything on the place (farm) and the T parts were on it.

I built a correct 21 Touring using the frame and a few other T parts. Over the years the rest I collected plus the correct engine. The remains of the body was a low cowl, 5 piece back Touring which I bought over 40 years ago.

I'm thinking an inheritance would be the less confusing way for the folks at the Texas DMV to understand instead of using the built from parts way.

This would be the closest thing I can think of to prove I own the car since I don't have a bill of sale for anything.

What do you think? Everything on the property belongs to me and my older sister. She did say she would verify the parts were mine or would sign them over to me.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John Aldrich Orting Wa on Tuesday, March 03, 2015 - 05:51 pm:

Sheesh...

No help here but I DID provide receipts for parts purchased and was issued a title. Here in Washington state they did not add in my labor so I paid taxes on less than 3 grand.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Kevin Whelihan Danbury, WI on Tuesday, March 03, 2015 - 07:06 pm:

In MN your vehicle will be titled as a salvage vehicle. MN started titling vehicles (I believe) prior to 1910. I know WI didn't start until 1914. The only problem with MN records is that back then you could title a vehicle anywhere: court house, justice of the peace, as well at state offices. Those records were not fully centralized and compiled until the mid-70's. So many of them were lost and the chances of you finding the original title to your's is pretty slim. Never hurts to search by engine number though, but that likely won't be the title number that was issued. As far as the taxes go: you that old dictum that you can't avoid death...and DMV.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Wayne Sheldon, Grass Valley, CA on Tuesday, March 03, 2015 - 07:08 pm:

First. Repeat after me. "I got a significant part of an original car and restored it back to like it was originally". You did NOT assemble a car from parts (I don't care if that one significant part was one wheel).
Second. My father gave me a lot of stuff he had had for many years. (He really did.)

All states have different degrees of difficulty. Some are downright criminally oppressive. Some states are not quite so bad. You really should talk with people familiar with your state.

And, to John L W, REALLY? $50 a year? I wish I could license my antique cars for only $50 a year each. (Just being slightly snide. I already made one comment about "criminally oppressive" government.)

Drive carefully, and do enjoy, W2


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Tyrone Thomas - Topeka KS on Tuesday, March 03, 2015 - 07:11 pm:

Kansas just needs the vin (engine number) and year. Then they get confused when they ask what model it is and they can't find it in their book. They assess a value.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bill dugger on Tuesday, March 03, 2015 - 07:45 pm:

Well everyone I guess I lucked out, I put together a "17 Depot Hack. Body was from New York and the engine from also New York.
The frame and all the rest from my stash. I went to DMV and titled it with nothing but the license, MYTHACK, well the licenses were about $175.00 but nothing was charged for the body and engine.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jerry Davis Houston TX. on Tuesday, March 03, 2015 - 08:23 pm:

Matt, I'm on the path to getting a Texas title for a Hack I've built up from parts here and yon. The flue has temporarily set my endeavor aside, but soon to be on the trail once more. Where I stand now is to complete another stack of paper work, get a weight from a public scale and take all to the Harris County Tax Office. Hopefully $'s will get it done....Jerry.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Clayton Swanson on Tuesday, March 03, 2015 - 08:31 pm:

Kevin W, that is not correct information! as i said, i am a minnesota resident, and have done about ten titles for cars built from parts and no one at the dmv ever suggested in any way that its a salvage title. minnesota only keeps records going back 7 years from the last registration, so if you have standard plates and you dont renew them, then after 7 years there will be no record. that means you must have a title or an older registration paper with your name on it or you are in the same boat as Matt, you have no title as far as they are concerned. now if you have a permanent plate like a pioneer, or collector, those records are kept. these are facts, i have been thru hundreds of cars thru my life time, started wrestling with the dot along time ago


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David Dewey, N. California on Tuesday, March 03, 2015 - 09:12 pm:

John,
Have your sister attest that the car belongs to you and she has no interest in it--NOT that the parts belong to you! You just inherited a car that was left on the property, and the title was lost.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Matt Lindberg on Tuesday, March 03, 2015 - 09:35 pm:

Thanks again. since you guys have been so helpful I have a related question about another car. My Grandpa recently gave me another model T. How are gifted cars handled? This one has a title in Grandpa's name. I suppose they will make me pay sales tax on that one to even though I didn't pay anything for it.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Lonnie Smith Baxter MN on Tuesday, March 03, 2015 - 09:58 pm:

Does it have pioneer plates on it? If it does then it is just the $150 that Clayton mentioned plus filing fee for the transfer.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David Dewey, N. California on Tuesday, March 03, 2015 - 10:58 pm:

In CA there is a form for family gifting--no taxes either!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Kevin Whelihan Danbury, WI on Wednesday, March 04, 2015 - 06:33 am:

Clayton, that's good news from you indeed. I have a '26 Touring that was pulled from a barn in pieces in 1992 and reassembled in MN that had to be issued a salvage title in order to be titled. I had one heck of a time getting that car re-titled in WI as a Collector vehicle. Been through all the fun and games, and MN won't change the title to a clear one. WI eventually did issue me a title so I can obtain Collector plates, but it has the info clearly printed on it "Originally titled as Salvage Vehicle in MN" on it. Good to know things have changed for the better.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Clayton Swanson on Wednesday, March 04, 2015 - 11:28 am:

i would have to guess that who ever the dmv person was that handled the case in 1992 did not do things correctly. nothing worse than a person of authority telling you things that are not true. example, when i got the letter saying they wanted to inspect the vin # on one car, i called the inspection station in mankato to ask what that was all about. the lady on the phone told me the car had to be together and running so they could do a safety inspection! we dont have safety inspections in mn. so i knew that was BS. i then drove there in person and got the real scoop from one of the inspectors, not the dumb receptionist. i've never delt with a salvage title, but have always assumed it was for vehicles declared totaled by an insurance company, which if i'm right would not apply to your 26 T. again, i think they talked to the wrong person in 1992, but at least you got it straightened out. i have a rust brown 26 touring also, happy motoring


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Larry Smith on Wednesday, March 04, 2015 - 11:29 am:

The best thing to do is stay away from the DMV! Use a private licensing service instead. I built up a car a few years ago, and used a private service to register the car. You can tell them everything because they don't work for the government. Total cost was about $225 including original license plates. Well worth it.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jerry VanOoteghem - SE Michigan on Wednesday, March 04, 2015 - 01:07 pm:

Matt,

Some states do not charge sales tax on vehicles that change ownership within the family. If a gift from grandpa to grandson does not fall within that category, then perhaps grandpa to dad/mom to you might work.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David Dewey, N. California on Wednesday, March 04, 2015 - 01:32 pm:

Larry's advice is good--even though I have titled many cars by myself, they keep changing the rules so when I bought Barney (25 barn fresh roadster) which was originally bought out of a barn in Nevada, I used a service too. Think it was around $200, and other than the removal of cash from my wallet, painless, no waiting in lines and the title was correct enough that I was able to later put YOM plates on him (THAT did require waiting in lines and explaining the process to the (thankfully) friendly clerk).
Now I am known to be CHEAP! but this time I believe I did the right thing by actually spending money!
:-)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Erik Johnson on Wednesday, March 04, 2015 - 03:46 pm:

RE: Driver and Vehicle Services (aka "DVS"), Minnesota Department of Public Safety.

Listen to Clayton and forget all the other BS. In my opinion, there is no reason to fear and loathe the Minnesota DVS or play games as some may advise.

There is no sales tax on "collector class vehicles" in Minnesota if they are registered under one of the following: Pioneer, Classic, Collector or Street Rod. It's a flat $150 "in lieu tax." There is also a $25 registration fee.

If gramps gave you a Model T Ford with a Minnesota title and registered with Minnesota Pioneer plates and signed it over to you, it's a piece of cake to transfer that title and license plate registration.

If there is no title, it's a matter of applying for a title and applying for plates. The DVS also requires a vehicle title bond when tangible proof of ownership cannot be established. In my opinion, these are simple formalities and not a big deal.

Likewise, if you recently assembled a car so you now have a car that never previously existed, it's typically a matter of applying for a title and plates, etc. mentioned above.

Minnesota has very reasonable motor vehicle titling and license plate registration laws pertaining to collector vehicles, especially one-time registration with permanent plates. The DVS has consumer friendly information on the internet and the statutes are easily accessed should you need to research further. This makes it easy to do your homework and educate yourself prior to commencing with any endeavor involving titles, registration, and interacting with the DVS.

Don't confuse your local DVS Deputy Registrar Office with the actual DVS in St. Paul.

The DVS in St. Paul has specialists that will assist you via telephone if you have questions. The number for special plates questions is 651-297-3166. There is no situation so new or unique that they have not previously dealt with it or have procedures in place to handle it. They've seen it all.

Erik in Minnesota….


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dan B on Wednesday, March 04, 2015 - 03:56 pm:

If you submit for a lost title, and the serial number is registered to someone else, didn't you just create an even bigger problem for yourself?

How far do the records go back?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dan B on Thursday, March 05, 2015 - 09:05 pm:

You submit for a lost title. The DMV sends out a letter to the last address on file, which just so happens to be where the grandson of the last owner is still living. The grandson says to himself, "I always loved that Model T my grandpa had. He did promise it to me after all." He writes back to the DMV stating that he has an old copy of the title in his possession and files a claim in court for his property to be returned to him.


As I stated above, isn't filing for a lost title a bad idea?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Clayton Swanson on Thursday, March 05, 2015 - 09:35 pm:

first of all you're not filling for a lost title, you are applying for a new title in this case. if you had a title, and had permanent plates of some sort, that engine number is yours. if you are applying for a new title you have no choice but to them your engine number and hope for the best. i used to collect WW2 army trucks, and at one time i sold about 10 or 12 dodge military powerwagons all to a dealer in one shot. years later, i had a fire in my shop and lost all my title cards. my local license plate guy printed out a list of all the titles in my name at that time, 44 of em! he told me he wasnt supposed to do that (why? its my own record?) but he knows me and did it. it was an odd list because some were cars long ago sold, they ran, so how did the next guy get plates?? anyway, heres my point, one of those titles was for a dodge truck that must have been sold in the lot that i sold to the dealer. i did not remember having that title when they were sold, or for what ever reason it did not get transferred out of my name. so at some point i applied for the duplicate title for that dodge. i got a letter back from the state saying i could not have that title because those numbers showed up in georgia ! so why was it on my list? the truck was sold by the dealer and the new guy applied for a title. now thats not exactly the scenario you speak of, but sorta kinda. i'm sure the guy in georgia never got wind of it, and the cops didnt come to arrest me. but again, you have no choice, you have to roll the dice and give them your motor number if you want a title


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Chris Landry, Hudson, NH on Friday, March 06, 2015 - 04:14 pm:

I guess we have it easy in NH. No title required on vehicles over 15 years old, and no sales tax!

Not sure how they handle a home-built car.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John H. Nichols on Friday, March 06, 2015 - 08:58 pm:

New York State is not a Title State for Model T's.
You take a notarized Bill of Sale, fill out their paperwork, have your insurance paperwork in hand
and they will give you a 10 day inspection permit, License plates and in about two weeks you will receive a transferrable registration. They might require you to have a State Trooper or Sheriff's deputy to verify the Serial Number.

Real easy going getting it registered. My main problem is finding a vehicle Inspection Station who knew what they were inspecting. Turned out to be the same guy I take my regular vehicles to
for maintenance.

John


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Clayton Swanson on Friday, March 06, 2015 - 10:24 pm:

new york and alabama are the states that those "title anything" companies operate out of. i tried the alabama screw job 35 years ago before i learned how to just play the game correctly here in minnesota. 200 bucks for a title. what i got in the mail was a copy of the law for alabama that states any car older than, what ever, i forget, does not need a title. and i got a set of alabama plates, registered to me, with the serial number for my car, a 55 chevy. but when i took that to the capitol bldg here they said so what? you dont have a title. now i have always wondered, what about the legitimate folks who actually moved here from those states? certainly in my case the state was wise to the scam, or did i just get the wrong clerk that day? that car was from south dakota. the good news about south dakota is they license the cars by county, not by state, and the counties do not throw out the records. so, lets say you find a 1947 plate in the junk yard, you go to the county seat and they will look it up and tell you who its registered to. and in some cases, (i've been lucky twice), you look at the phone book for that town(remember those?)and some one with that name still lives there, and in my case they were very helpful and got me a title. the 55 chev, and one old motorcycle bought out of a junk yard that still had an old plate on it. early in this thread some one mentioned how easy it is to get a NEW title in so dak, not true. my neighbor moved there 5 years ago, and had me get a title for him


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